Legalising Prostitution

[Oola]

Late last night I was watching a police programme about a vice squad working on the streets of Nottingham. Apparently they've been trying to reduce the number of girls working the streets and have a 'rehabilitation' scheme set up to try and get them shelter, benefits, and on the road to leaving their prostitution as a means of income behind.

Whilst I fully support this, I was also thinking - would legalising brothels help or hinder the situation? They had a guy there who was fairly old and had been seeing prostitutes for 15 years, I guess it was all he could get. But it was a bit like the supermarkets and consumer argument - if the girls are supplying the trade, men will know that they're there and will use and abuse them as they wish. But without legalising brothels this practise will continue, possibly with the women even more vulnerable to attack or pimps. I really can't come to a conclusion about it.

Morally, I am not someone who could ever have a one night stand I don't think, it's just not the sort of person I am. I believe sex before marriage is not an evil sin, if it's between two loving adults then surely it's a healthy part of knowing somebody. To me marriage means the absolute basic definition of the word - as in the coming together of two committed people. I do have a problem with people that sleep around willy nilly, I see it as foolish and dangerous. But with prostitution, it's been around for thousands of years (the oldest trade), and I can't see a world without it. So I'm wondering if legalising brothels is the less of two 'evils', or giving out the message that it's ok, and thus bringing in an attitude of complacency, to sleep with/perform numerous sexual acts with strangers for money? Tricky one.

[fife]

Personally like you Oola i am not sure, as you say it has been around for along time and doubt will ever go away unless there is no demand for it (which i don't for see). I know it is not the same but it is like the argument to legalise cannabis now in amsterdam both smoking cannabis and prostitution are legal i have never been to amsterdam but it attracts un savory characters in my opinion, although my friend and her husband have been and tell me it is a beautiful city. Anyway moving on it is not just about legalising prostitution it is all the other things that come with it i.e drugs, pimps, STI's and the list could go on. If the govenrment did allow this to be legalised i think it will be the start of an already deteriorating society.

[Crocus]

Hi Oola, I think this question is about as old as the trade itself! To me it's a very dangerous 'trade' if you take aids, pimps and possible attack and rape into account, even murder. Not to mention the morality of it all. As long as brothels are there, men will make use of it, and as long as men want to make use of brothels, the girls will be there. What on earth is the impact on relationships and marriages? What is the long term effect on these girls who sell their bodies for money, healthwise and emotionally? It's got have some sort of bad impact on them. I fear to think what influence it has on relationships or marriages. I'm against protitution, legal or otherwise. To me it's wrong, a sin and downright sad.

[jazzactivist]

Hi all, I agree that it is the 'oldest profession' and also am not sure if legalising prostitution would really benefit anyone, or make them safer. The types of people who run brothels and massage parlours aren't exactly known for their kindness and humanity, even in countries where it is legal.

I think that prostitution needs to be tackled in a multiple way. Unless men stop the idea that they are somehow entitled to sex and that it is an essential part of their lives no matter what their circumstances, then there will always be the demand for prostitution. I think that the best way to try to stop it is: for men who buy sex to be routinely arrested, publicly humiliated with names and photos in the papers, and fined or jailed, and then have to attend an education programme to understand what is behind prostitution and how they contributed to it. At the same time it is necessary to protect women by raising the minimum wage so that women can't make more money from prostitution than they can in a regular job, make it possible for women migrants / refugees to legally work, and ensure that girls (and boys) who have been abused have a proper programme of care to build their self-esteem, skills and a healthy social circle so that they don't just drift into prostitution. If these methods were used all at the same time then the problem of prostitution to fund expensive drug habits would be fairly isolated and easily dealt with through properly funded specialist agencies.

However, are we sure that the people who make the decisions really want prostution to stop? There are frequent enough accounts of politicians, police officers, judges, doctors and other male professionals using prostitutes. In a recent survey of 1000 sex industry workers as to which men are the most frequent customers, rather than the stereotypes of rich, young businessmen on boys nights out, or sad, lonely old men, the overwhelming majority were married men with at least one child who work in the education professions ie teachers and lecturers!

[Crocus]

Hi Jazz, if someone were to tell me for years that I'm the most beautiful woman in the word, of course I'm going start believing it. The same with men if they are constantly being told that they are entitled to sex by the media, movies, where ever actually, and that it is an essential part of their lives no matter what, as you've described it. So many times we read and hear of high profile men making use of prostitutes. The more I read about these things, the uglier it gets.

[jazzactivist]

I agree with you, Crocus. The problem is that the media etc reinforce the idea that men should just want and get sex all the time, and if they don't want to then they are a bit strange and not a 'real' man. Of course, plenty of men treat women well and would never consider going to a prostitute, but there are also a signficant amount who do. That report about which men are the most frequent customers definately made me look at my colleagues at the university in a different light. Staff meetings have never been the same since!

[Oola]

Interestingly on the programme I watched, the prostitutes were allowed to walk away a lot of the time, or just cautioned, whilst the men were the ones who were fined and sent on special rehabilitation one-day courses. There was one incident where they did offer the prostitute a chance to go through a programme to help her sort out her situation, her finances, job-seeking etc. But it seemed that the majority of the girls just walked off into the night...sending out completely the wrong message as far as I'm concerned.

[jazzactivist]

Hi Oola, I heard that the UK Government has been investigating the European idea of prosecuting the male customers, rather than the prostitutes, so maybe the aim of the programme was to see if it works. I agree with you that the women often just walk away from any help, but at the moment prostitution still pays more than most general jobs. There needs to be combined support to help people to really stop. I don't agree with prostitution myself, as I think that it degrades women / men who do it, and society as a whole, but I don't blame prostitutes for this. I couldn't imagine earning money that way, but many prostitutes say that women who allow men to pay for everything for them are doing the same thing, and that a direct cash transaction is more honest.

[Crocus]

As long as morality are pushed aside and as long as men are prepared to pay anything for their "so called rights" this 'business' won't stop. Every person in this trade ( both sides) will have to do some serious soul searching, starting within themselves to put a stop to this unsavoury trade. Laws, policing, won't put an end to this, they will always find a way to carry on. It's got to come from within, the will to stop going to prostitutes and the will to stop being a prostitute.

[Oola]

The thing is, I think a lot of the women aren't in a state to be soul searching. They're either addicted and dependent on drugs, or threatened with violence and death if they're being pimped out. It's a very difficult circle to get out of I think, which is why I raised the issue of legal brothels, thinking quite naively that they'd be run by more 'savoury' types!

As Jazz says it's also an issue of self-esteem - I imagine a lot of these women have zero and so can't really see a future in which they don't sell themselves for money.

[Crocus]

Then rather than legalising, put a programme in place by people, with the correct know-how, to rehabilitate these girls dependent on drugs, and at the same time, have these girls undergo intensive therapy, teaching them that they are much much more worth than sleeping with every tom dick and harry in order to make a living. Build their self esteem. By legalising it, the reasons for practising this profession would add a complete different angle. Being dependant on drugs can't then be the only excuse anymore. Or difficult circumstances. Then it's going to be a legal 'profession' for which you don't need education.

[jazzactivist]

I really can't see how legalising it would help. Imagine what kinds of places these legal brothels would be. Not the 'romantic' old French style of novels with plush bedrooms, champagne and boudoir biscuits, but bleak motel style with rooms that are easy to rent and clean. Also, if prostitution is legalised will it just become another job that women on benefits who have to visit the job centre are pushed into? When I was young and travelling around Europe I went to Amsterdam and was looking for a job, and jobs in or attached to the sex industry were legitimate jobs advised on by the dept of employment. I was offered one as a ticket seller for a 24 hour peep show, or as a sales assistant in a sex shop. I didn't take either, but it was all very blase. I also remember seeing the women sitting in tiny shop windows in lacy underwear with just a two bar electric fire for warmth. Most were knitting baby clothes to wile away the time. Even though it was legal it was all a bit grim, and apparently that was the up-market tourist face of what went on.

[sunflower]

I think it would be a very sad day for the UK if prostitution were made legal. Although, having said that, certain newspapers have adverts for models and massage parlours, so there is a form of turning the blind eye here. Making it legal is sending out a message that it is OK to have sex for sex sake rather than part of a loving relationship. Also, I think it would be terrible for wives, forever wondering if their husbands were visiting brothels, and in one sense, not having a leg to stand on because the law says it is legal.
Legalizing prostitution would be a backward step in equality between the sexes....a discussion we had earlier.

[Crocus]

Hi, that's exactly why I said by legalising prostitution it will add a complete different angle of girls possibly dropping out of school quite early, because there's work out there for which they don't need any kind of education whatsoever. Society turns a blind eye by sootheing themselves with the idea that "it's a profession as old as man itself", and don't consider try stopping this in one way or another. But apart from all things said about and around prostitution, morality, conveniently, seems to be forgotton through all times.

[Oola]

I still think there'd be a stigma attached to it though I think.

I wonder if many people see it as wrong just because it's currently illegal, or because it's morally wrong. For me, it's a moral thing more than a legal thing.

[Crocus]

Yes Oola, I agree. It is a moral thing and not a legal thing. No legalisation will put this right. It's GOT to come from within. Priority to morality. And morality is something that starts at home.

[jazzactivist]

I don't think that women are immoral just for wanting to earn a fair living and take care of their's and their families' needs. Promiscuity and prostitution are two different approaches to the same thing, but both are usually associated with low self-esteem. It is shocking that prostitution appears to be the best route open for some women, especially those in most desperate need. If there is any immorality involved I think that it is with the politicians who could make positive decisions that enhance opportunities for all women and men, but who create the conditions that lower people's faith in their own abilities so much that they believe that prostitution is a viable option.

[Crocus]

Exactly why prostitutes walk the streets of the world! It's a hot potato to which a lot of excuses are attached. It's a vicious circle, the one party "relying" on the other. And none of those parties are willing to break the circle, because one side gets paid a lot of money, the other side get what they want. The one is an excuse for the other. And as long as the one uses the other for whatever reason, this will just carry on. I sometimes get the impression that there's no will to break this circle. In the process lives are messed up, relationships are messed up, and I think to a certain extent, self respect are messed up. I think a lot of heartbreak may be involved as well. There's just no two ways about this - it's wrong. Always was, are at the moment, and will always be.

[Oola]

Of course I've just been focusing on the street prostitution, but have just been thinking about the 'diary of a call girl', recently adapted to the screen by Billie Piper. I don't know if these women would consider themselves as having low self-esteem or as promiscuous, or even immoral. I understand it might only show the more 'glamourous' side of it, but I wonder whether these women are also exploiting men and being quite business minded, in a way? They have something men want, a gap in the market, and exploit it. If they don't see sex as emotional and can see it as just work and separate from their private life, and there's no drugs or 'crime' (aside from the act itself), are they to blame? I am of course just trying to play devil's advocate here! It's quite hard to understand in my mindset I think, because it's not something I could ever envisage myself doing, I'm just trying to explore different avenues and opinions.

jazzactivist, out of interest what sort of conditions are you referring to? :) I do think there is still a distinct lack of support for these women, but what course of action can politicians take for them?

[Ivy]

Prostitution has been legalized a couple of years ago in Germany. Prostitutes are now normal tax payers and therefore health insured. That is about all they got from the legalisation. There are still thousands illegal prostitutes from eastern Europe who get here under false promises of "decent" work who do not even get as much as a pocket-money, will have their passports taken away as soon as they get here and will be exploited and drugged in order to keep them calm and not run away. They are still victims of brutal and perverted men who regard these women as a commodity.
On the whole, life has not become any easier for the majority of prostitutes only a very small minority has benefited from the legalisation and they are the ones who declared their trade to be masseur or beautician before the legalisation and paid their taxes in order to get health insurance and stood up for themselves and their rights. I have seen an interview on TV the other day with a former prostitute who was some kind of celebrity where I live. She now works as a street-worker helping young girls to get out of prostitution and out of the hands of brutal men. She said that when she was still working as a prostitute she never worked for anybody than herself but it was very hard to stand up for her own rights and that the legalisation was just a sedation for the customer who can say " well it's legal after all, so what should be wrong with it?"

[Crocus]

Hi Ivy, what you've said in your last sentence about it not being wrong because it's legal, that's just so typical of how these people think! The perfect excuse actually for men to exploit these girls! They don't worry, or care, about morality, as long as they get what they want, willing to pay any price for it. The same can actually also be said about the girls who decide to do this kind of thing - those who make the decision, knowing that it's totally wrong, but is in it for the money. I'll come back to what I've said that soul searching is seriously necessary regarding prostitution, on all sides of this 'business'. The vicious circle of men wanting to go to prostitues and women wanting the money they get paid, have to be broken somehow. It will take an enormous effort and probably years, if ever though. Exactly why prostitutes are where they are, and men just carry on going to brothels. The WILL has to be there to not do it.

Where girls are exploited and drugged, is perhaps a different matter altogether, where men and women are to blame for what's going on, and don't care one hoot about these girls' lives, as long as they get what they want.

[jazzactivist]

Hi Oola, I was referring to the difficult financial conditions / debt trap that many women find themselves in due to student debt, mortgage arrears, credit debt etc., let alone owing to money lenders for women who can't get credit in the usual ways. The politicians create these socio-economic conditions through setting low benefit and wage levels, and also allowing lenders to charge any amount of interest that they like - some charge 400%. They could easly choose to change these conditions through increasing the minimum wage / basic benefits and capping loan interest levels.

From working with vulnerable women I know that some young women go straight into prostitution as it is a family line of work - their mums, sisters and often grandmothers did it, or they have become involved in the drug scene early on, but many women enter it at various stages for financial reasons with the intention only to do so for a short period of time to clear their debts, but then get involved in the drink / drugs / greater debt spiral in order to cope with what they do. In the 1980s there was a huge increase in street prostitution just prior to and after Christmas, but this isn't the case anymore due to changing attitudes about present buying and spending. That has to be a good thing, I think. The idea for legalising prostitution is supposed to add some rights and dignity to this work through being able to tax prostitution and, therefore, provide sick pay / benefits etc., but this is probably more for revenue generation than to really care about the women / men involved.

Some women at the 'high class' end of prostitution argue for it, and can earn lots of money, but how free is this life when you have to surrender the use of your own body for whatever degrading purposes the client pays for? After all we only have one body and it needs looking after. The same is argued by women who are able to earn money and gain status from the porn industry, but the other side of the coin is the much larger world of cheap production and low / no pay. Despite what some people argue, I can't see how prostitutes selling their bodies are in a powerful position, it is their clients who call the shots and make the demands, and hand over or with hold payment. To me, it is just as degrading to the clients as to the prostitutes, as it lowers social interaction to just what money can buy with no humanitarian limits.

[Crocus]

Hi Jazz, I agree that it is just as degrading to the clients, but one could perhaps just keep it in mind that clients make the decision to go down that road, literally. What you had said about grandmothers, mothers, sisters and now daughters doing this kind of thing, isn't an awful the example that's been set to a daughter? It blows my mind. Where are the nurturing, love and proper parental education that a child needs, away from this degrading 'habit' so to speak? I know that's what they used to doing, but that is exactly the point. Has anyone done something to guide these girls into a life away from this? If there's no prostitutes, clients can't call the shots. It's a two way thing. The one spur's on the other and somewhere between this degrading business and the people who practise it, lives, morality, self respect, respect and a whole lot of other things go down the drain, down a black hole. If those involved in this, don't break the circle themselves, it will carry on. The will not to carry on, will have to come from within them, no one else.

[jazzactivist]

I agree with you, Crocus. I think that people with the power to do so need to break this dependency cycle, but no-one will while there are benefits in it. There are organisations doing their best to work with prostitutes to support them and encourage them to choose an alternative way of earning a living and different lifestyle, but they are really underfunded and can only help a few. Most of this work ends up being about 'harm reduction' and safety on the job rather than genuine alternatives, as it is cheaper. I have sometimes worked with young women whose relatives are involved in the sex industry, or with mothers who work in the sex indusry and who have daughers and sons. Some mothers take the view that they continue to do this work to help prevent their own children going down that route and use their earnings to pay for private schooling and tuition, good health care, nice housing etc. and hide how they make their living, while other mothers take the view that they have survived it so their own daughter / son should be OK in the same work. Some really unscrupulous parents can't wait for their children to become old enough so that they can do the work instead and support their parents. Like you, I think that even the most had-bitten cases are down to low self-esteem and the low value of human life.

[Crocus]

This is a back against the wall problem, Jazz. Perhaps if money can be made available to organisations, voluntary workers, community workers to really rehabilitate and guide these girls, and women, into a proper lifestyle? You know, this is a fact of life which I don't now a whole lot about, apart from the odd article in magazines perhaps, in news papers, or on telly. The more I read about this here, the more I become aware of the enormity of this problem, the ugliness, the utterly sadness of it all! I cannot think that anyone doing this for whatever reason, whatever excuse, can be happy! How can one be happy in knowing that you sell your body to men? You might be "happy" on the surface, with all the money in hand, but goodness me, when you go to bed at night, what do you think, how do you feel? Or is it a matter of your mind being so dulled by it all, that reason goes out the window? Or perhaps being addicted to the money you earn? How must you feel if you've just been in a brothel, paying heaven knows what for sex, what do you think of those women, or doesn't it bother at all, as long as you get what you want?

[jazzactivist]

I guess that prostitutes don't actually go to bed at night, crocus, but I know what you mean! I think that you are probbaly right when you say that prostitutes manage to blank it out. I don't think that their clients care at all, and some men even think that they are helping them / making friends etc! I have heard it said that saying that we don't know any prostitutes is like saying that we don't know anyone who is gay. There are many more than most people would expect, even in rural areas, and it isn't always obvious.

[Crocus]

It's really sad, this exploiting of body, and mind.