UK schools proposals

[jazzactivist]

Our education minister has announced his new plans for schools, including using army personnel in classrooms to deal with unruly pupils. Apparently, ex-soldiers are going to be offered retraining as teachers. I am a bit alarmed about this idea. What are they going to do - shoot the children if they misbehave? Or make a disruptive pupil the class "B**ch" - did anyone else watch the drama Accused the other evening? What do you think about transferrable skills between the armed forces and teaching? OH still goes cold at the memory of his old, ex-army, gym teacher who terrified everyone into submission.

[souter girl]

Personally I am delighted that Foreign Languages once again join the curriculum, so many kids give up in Y9 (age13!!) to do trendy things like BTEC IT, I ask you! I also welcome the move away from modules where kids are only tested on one chunk of the course at a time.Imagine sitting your driving test like that - "Oh you passed your steering, but failed parking and reversing round corners. You'll have to resit those and then sit gear-changing" And it's about time grammar and spelling were rewarded too, schoolboy howlers may be funny but do not indicate a high level of either education or effort.

[Gentian]

I think "Accused" was a bit far fetched and unrealistic(as was said by the review in RT). If ex-military personel can instill a bit of discipline and insist on good grammar and perfect spelling it can be no bad thing.

[jazzactivist]

What makes you think Accused was far-fetched, Gen? Jimmy McGovern can be a bit over-sentimental, but I thought it was probably very accurate in what may go on in the military in countries far away from here. Not in every regiment, but in lax ones that allow that type of bully to take control. There are always instances of suicide from bullying at military barracks here too. I know that it was the norm in boys' schools for gym teachers to usually be ex-army, and they were always the worst teachers in the school. My OH had one of those who just shouted at the class all the time and picked on the boys who weren't sporty, then 10 years later his younger brother had the same gym teacher. OH's brother was very overweight, and that man made his school life a misery. I remember in SA that it was common for sports teachers in boys' schools to be ex-military too, and they were the same.

I welcome a return to learning languages in schools, but don't like the return to the old-fashioned English / Maths curriculum, and the grading schools according to exam results. Not everyone enjoys those traditional subjects as much as others, so whatever we think of them some young people like graphics, IT and media studies more, and do well in them. I think I might have enjoyed school more if the subjects hadn't been so traditional, and would have willingly swapped Maths or Latin for Media or Civics. I think it is important to have reasonably good spelling and grammar, but it doesn't have to be perfect, surely the content is more important.

[Oola]

Having had to suffer sharing a classroom with really disruptive students, during a time when teachers were virtually not allowed to touch their students to intervene/remove them, I can *almost* see the appeal in bringing that kind of militant discipline into the classroom. I don't believe in corporal punishment at all, but I did personally suffer and get really fed up of disruptive children that just couldn't be controlled or learnt any respect. I imagine a lot of this is down to inadequate parenting, social issues etc, but it spilled over into the classroom and affected my learning, and how I was taught. It vastly improved once we moved into sets and again in sixth form.

I think thought that a move to more skills-based or vocational classes for those who aren't necessarily traditionally 'academic' would be a good way for them to feel as though they're learning, and offer alternative teaching methods, as well as equipping people with skills to take them into jobs or further education. Maybe in conjunction with 'core' subjects like Maths and English. Might be difficult to fund, though...

[jazzactivist]

I think it should all be funded to a very high level Oola, as what can be more important than people's education? I can't see it happening though. The problem with 'divided' education is that it tends to divide along social class lines, with more poorer children ending up in the skills / remedial classes or schools and children from wealthier middle-class homes in the traditional subjects. That type of social divide is why it was fazed out in the first place. Both of my parents attended private high schools on scholarships, and that was the only way then for children from poorer backgrounds to get the best education. The rest went to secondary modern schools or left at 15 to go out to work. I think a mix of traditional and contemporary subjects in schools is important today and school students should be allowed to choose their own preferred mix based on their interests. I think they should also be able to choose if they want to leave at 15 and get an apprenticeship. There's no point in forcing children to learn set subjects that they don't care about, and that, plus poor teaching skills, is what leads to disruption in class.

In the States many schools have a police presence and I wouldn't want to see that here, not least because we are hardly going to have any police officers anymore as it is! But I don't think it is appropriate for army personnel to transfer to schools, as their skills and aims are very different to those of a teacher.

[eleanor2]

my nephew came out of the army and went to teacher training. he is now a wonderful teacher. he has always liked writing and poetry. He has never been a bully and he is not a big tough looking type. So it is best not to put people in boxes .In the army they are taught discipline .I think there is a lot more discipline needed in schools. My grandsons education is being disrupted at the moment due to an oversized class and disruptive children. Some high schools around here suffer terrible with disruptive violent children. I cant for the life of me believe they want ex soldiers to go and clout the kids. Just to be a teacher that doesnt crumble under pressure from disruptive children.

[Ivy]

I had an ex Yugoslav army soldier as sports teacher and just thinking about him makes me shiver. Ee this is not putting people in boxes. From what I read in Jazz's original post it is the intention to use people who are bullies and tough to get discipline back into the classroom. I do agree not all soldiers are bullies or cruel and some could be brilliant teachers but that's not the people they are looking for in this program, if I did get it correctly.

[jazzactivist]

I think your nephew would be one of the rarities, e. Why did he go into the army in the first place if he has those other interests and inclinations? I agree with Ivy, from what I understand the idea is to encourage the type of people who are strict disciplinarians and bullies to keep control in schools. Teachers aren't weak and unable to stand up for themselves, but the long-standing problems of schools not being given enough resources to make class sizes really small and teachers having to spend most of their time focusing on league tables and paperwork rather than high quality teaching has led to the problems. Plus, the wide-ranging social problems around and the emphasis on entertainment in short bursts which means children find it hard to concentrate. A committed teacher who loves the subject they teach and works in a well-resourced school with small class sizes of no more than 12-15 shouldn't have any problems in class. I think the government is going about this in the wrong way.

[Crocus]

Shouldn't this perhaps be "tackled" from the point of why pupils are unruly, the reason? And shouldn't parents also be involved? Somehow to me the plans mentioned above seem to be a plaster being stuck on something which goes a lot deeper and that should get serious attention?

[jazzactivist]

I agree with you crocus, it is even officially known as a "sticking plaster or spray-on solution"! Why pupils misbehave is a mixed bag of reasons, and parents are expected to be very involved in the schools here with behaviour and attendance contracts etc., but there is still a lot of unruly behaviour in some classes. On the one hand I think that parents don't have a place in schools and teachers should just be left to get on with it, but on the other it is important that the school knows what is going on at home so that they can anticipate when there might be problems. I think at the heart of it the problem is that schools and teaching and learning have become so separated from humanity and local communities that they just operate as machines at all levels. That isn't good for the pupils, teachers or anyone else, but until schooling stops being results driven nothing will change. There was better behaviour in class when the belt and cane were used, but you then had young people who were too compliant and afraid to voice their own opinion or be different in some way. There would be no need for discipline at all if the learning experience is good, classes very small, and pupils look forward to going to school. I think there are too many problems with the education system to just keep tinkering with it to see what works. Perhaps we should make attending school voluntary and have a complete re-think about what types of learning should take place there to make learning attractive and welcoming, and successful.

[Crocus]

I don't think parents should be involved on school level, but they certainly should be involved with their children at home. Even that is not a guarantee, but 'charity starts at home'. I agree there are a whole list of reasons why children can be unruly, and finding the reasons first I think is quite important. Many times parents expect from teachers and headmasters to 'bring up' their children, but it's not how it works unfortunately. Parents and teachers are on different ends of the stick.

I remember when H did his proof teaching during July, he mentioned that the class had 30+ kids and it was quite difficult to do what he had to plus there were problem children in the class which added a different dimension to it all!

[jazzactivist]

And those disruptions and different problems in class can be very different from one another, and need different solutions too! It's hard to get to the bottom of what really causes bad behaviour at school, as there are so many possibilities. I think the problem is social - that many young people find it hard to see a decent future for themselves and link it to what happens at school. They are surrounded by examples of adults who studied hard and did all the right things, but have ended up in debt or without a steady job or income and lead quite a precarious existance. Young people are also surrounded by adults everywhere who are rude to one another, exploit one another, and show anger or frustration in any situation. And that is all viewed as acceptable behaviour, so if it is good enough for adults why should they behave any differently?

When we were young we could see an immediate link between behaving and doing well at school and becoming a successful adult with a job, home, car, holidays etc. Even if, like me, you hated school you still saw its value. The better you did at school the better your future. That isn't the case any more, so many young people just think short-term and set out to enjoy themselves socially at school and the hard work comes second. It has become more important today to be successful with your peers than successful as an individual based on sound values. Think of all the TV programmes where people's success or failure rests solely on what other people think of them, rather than whether they are steadily learning or any good at what they are doing. School doesn't seem to have much connection to real life anymore.

[souter girl]

I had an ex Yugoslav army soldier as sports teacher and just thinking about him makes me shiver. Ee this is not putting people in boxes. From what I read in Jazz's original post it is the intention to use people who are bullies and tough to get discipline back into the classroom. I do agree not all soldiers are bullies or cruel and some could be brilliant teachers but that's not the people they are looking for in this program, if I did get it correctly.
Sorry Ivy, but you are way off beam if you think it is anybody's intention to recruit "bullies" into the classroom. I cannot imagine where you got this idea from! As you say you do not need to be a bully to keep good discipline nor does being ex-army of necessity make people bullies. That is emotive language!!

[dragonfly]

I think it is a brilliant idea as long as the army teachers are allowed to discipline the children. How anyone can learn with disruptive pupils in a class, i don't know. The soldier come teacher is also my nephew and he is a wonderful teacher who does not allow the children to be unrully and creates an interesting class and his pupils think he is great. He doesn't need to bully them and they know they can't get the better of him. I have a friend who is a teacher and she can't even stop her pupils from swearing in class. She has been on sick leave for months with stress and depression. Schools must lose a lot of good teachers who are timid and can't cope with aggression. I think pupils become disruptive because they can. In some schools they are allowed to do what they want and if the teacher says anything to them they say their parents will sue them or they even get attacked. My son wanted to be a teacher but in training couldn't cope with being swore at by young children so decided it wasn't for him. Teaching has totally changed from when I was at school and I am so thankful that there was discipline in those days for I'm sure I wouldn't be the person I am today if I had been allowed to do as I pleased.

[souter girl]

Teachers are given very little support either by the authorities or by the parents when it comes to discipline, possibly because the same parents take the attitude that their child must ALWAYS be in the right and while I do not condone corporal punishment, you can only bluff so long as there are precious few sanctions teachers can employ. Detentions? no chance - parents write a note to say little dear has to come home; Lines? old-fashioned; even raising your voice might damage the poor things! Fair enough for tinies but I am also talking about hulking 6 foot teenage lads. Let's face it, there is a lot of seriously inadequate parenting out there, link that with "trendy" ideology in schools and you have a recipe for disaster. PS I was never a bully, I believe the kids saw me as "firm but fair" and I kept very good order in my lessons but even I could see how the ground was being eroded by the trendies and society in general :(

[eleanor2]

I have seen it for myself. If a disruptive pupil who is a pain to the teachers and to the other children gets told off .Their parents come to school and have a go at the teacher.These are the bullies in school.Just because some-one goes in the army it does not make them a bully personality.A few yes the same as in any career.Quite a few go into the army for a carreer. One i know specialised in mobile building talents the other in driving every vehicle available.You can go into the army to work with many skills,medical,social ,electrical etc. In the army they do learn to be tough,to give and accept discipline. I am sorry to say in some areas the teachers need to be tough to survive .

[Gentian]

I have been threatened by parents for trying to discipline their children, on one occasion I had to run for it.

[souter girl]

Keeps you fit! :D

[Primrose]

My brother, when he was a headmaster, had a flower pot thrown at him by a parent. He had asked her to come and discuss her child and she brought her friend. When the flower pot came across the room he said 'That wasn't acceptable behaviour was it?' He said to his surprise the friend agreed with him and said 'No - it wasn't!'

[jazzactivist]

Well, I've worked with lots of parents who would be considered to be 'problem parents' of unruly children and have never had any problems in any of my classes, even when working with family groups. I think having genuine respect for your students and recognising that the teacher isn't always right goes a long way towards running a calm classroom and changing attitudes. That, and the teacher being really enthusiastic about their subject and being thrilled to pass on what they know. There is always the occasional person who will 'try it on' in all sorts of ways, but that is about their inadequacy in that situation and I found that challenging them in a friendly but firm way in class and speaking with them privately about why they aren't participating in the most productive way sorts out the problem. It may take a few goes, but it always works.

I think what is considered to be bad behaviour in class should be sorted out too. Some teachers seem to expect perfect behaviour and absolute respect from their students, whatever they are like as a person and teacher. A couple we know are constantly being called to the school because their two daughters, aged 11 and 7, ask lots of questions in class and challenge the teacher. This is seen as very bad behaviour and the elder girl is about to be excluded. They are raising their daughters not to take everything they are told at face value, but to engage in asking more about it towork out their own conclusions. You would think that teachers would welcome lively and interested pupils like them, but no.

As far as the army goes, I agree with what Ivy has said about her gym teacher and think that is a common experience. We shouldn't forget that whatever reasons people have for signing up, they are signing up to be someone to injures and kills other people just for being different to them, or supports the operations for doing so. Whatever their actual job there, they are part of that 'defense' machine, and the disciplne part comes from just doing what they are told and not asking questions. So I for one don't think that there is much value in having that sort of approach when teaching our children, as surely we want them to have enquiring minds and lovely personalities. All children have to learn appropriateness of certain behaviours, and since they spend so much of the day at school it isn't surprising that they use it as a testing ground.

[dragonfly]

It doesn't matter how good a teacher is or how enthusiastic they will not get through to really disruptive pupils. If only it was that easy we wouldn't have all this trouble in schools.

I don't believe that children who ask appropriate questions at appropriate times will be excluded. Children who are constantly opposing a teacher and interrupting the class hopefully will.

Not all people who enter the army expect to injure or kill. They are trained so that they can if they have to but most hope they never have to. Lots go in for the career side of it and like the disciplined life and comradery. I think they will make good teachers because they won’t be an easy pushover.