Unconditional basic income

[Ivy]

What would you say if your new government would decide everybody would get an unconditional basic income, no matter how old whether working or hanging about, nursing elderly relatives at home or being full time mums/dads? There have been heated debates on this, the prominent pro defender was the man who owns the chemists chain, I mentioned on the thread about Christians, when Jazz said Christians would not wish for systems to change. Would you get up at 5 in the morning to milk the cows, spend an early March morning in a lambing shed, while your neighbour lay in bed only to get up at nine to read the newspaper have some bread and tea and walk the dog? Do you think people would be motivated to go out to empty the rubbish bins, spend weeks away from home on a fish trawler? Some said you could earn extra on top of your basic income errrr.... but we have this system already. If you are unemployed the state pays your health insurance,your rent, a washing machine, a fridge ( cookers and wash basins must always be installed by the landlord) a tv set,furniture you get clothing vouchers so you don't have to run around in second hand clothes 2 pair of shoes for every child each year and if you can prove their feet have grown you get an extra pair.
Many people working in Germany get paid less than the social welfare would pay them for doing nothing ( they can top up with social benefits). Do you think this ought to be changed?

[jazzactivist]

It's the same in the UK, Ivy, which is what makes it so difficult for some people to make the step from living on welfare benefits to going out to work. Welfare benefits are now quite generous, but wages are quite low in comparison, plus there is the extra cost of going out to a job such as travel to work, lunches, suitable work clothes, extra costs like contributing to celebrations etc. The other thing is that once people come off benefits there is the extra cost of paying full Council Tax, full rent etc, and many people live in accommodation that is affordable with housing benefit, but unaffordable if they have a job. The last government did quite a lot to ease the transition with help with fares, work clothes etc for the first couple of months, but it is still the case that many people can't afford to work!

I don't agree with people having an unconditional basic income, as I don't think that all types of work are the same, and if people don't work or choose to stay at home and raise their family then why should they get it? I do think that there should be a much narrower band of what is a minimum wage and a maximum salary though, as most jobs are comparable. For example, here in the UK the manager at a small bank branch would earn about £50-70000 per year plus overtime and bonuses, whereas the manager of a young people's unit would only earn about £25-35000, with no overtime or bonus payments. Both jobs involve managing resources and staff, development planning etc, and the young people's work actually involves life and death responsibilities. I think that a much narrower band of earning power, say a minimum of £20000pa for basic jobs and a maximum of £50000pa for managerial ones, with no bonuses or overtime, would mean that people would be much more able to choose the work that we would love to do, and so be more likely to be good at it. There would also be more jobs available, and no-one would struggle. There are always people who enjoy looking after livestock, whatever the hours, love to cook and meet others, and people who enjoy working with figures etc. I know what I would choose and it would be lambing at midnight over sitting in a bank!

[Crocus]

Hi Ivy, I think you will always get this situation where one has to get up to milk the cows whilst his neighbour is laying in bed reading his morning paper. It has been, it is and will always be a phenomenon I think.

The system you mentioned might work in industrialised countries, but in 3rd world countries it's a total different scenario because of the high unemployment which the small group who are working and forming the basis of the taxpayers are so loaded already they simply can't carry the rest of the country.

As for Christians who are not open to change, I'm not sure where it comes from, but certainly change for the better is something everybody would like. But that said, I can't speak for anyone else than myself of course. x

[jazzactivist]

This month the UK's official figure is 8% unemployment, but that doesn't take into account all the people on part-time or low pay and claiming partial benefits. There is also a seasonal adjustment when more people work in summer leisure and tourism jobs, but then they are unemployed again from October. Poverty Alliance says the real figure is more likely nearer 10-15% of the population that doesn't have a regular income from employment. What are the unemployment figures in SA, crocus?

While I don't think that people staying at home to look after children should get paid for doing so as it's their choice, but I do think that full-time carers of ill/disabled children or partners and of elderly parents should get a suitable wage though.

[Crocus]

In the first quarter of 2010 it's 25.2% Jazz. The difference here many people but do not formerly apply for a job, so therefore they fall outside the statistics. Which means unemployment is much higher than the official figure. x

[Ivy]

:eek:WHAT 25% ?:eek:
when we had numbers like that all hell broke loose during the Weimar republic
between the wars....

[jazzactivist]

That's a lot of people out of work, especially when there is such a big population in SA. Here we have the highest level of unemployment for 30 years! Neither set of figures takes into account people who are self-employed though, so it could be lower... What is the unemployment percentage in Germany, Ivy?

[Ivy]

8,6% but that is not taking into account all those who are on short time labour due to the economic crisis and get part of their wages from the state.

[dragonfly]

I don't agree with the basic unconditional income either. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a job they enjoy and most people need an incentive to go to work. I would not be willing to go out to work if my neighbour could sit at home and get the same money for doing very little. But isn't that how it is now, I know people who have had a good life on the dole while others have worked hard and been very little better off. For as Jazz says, if you are working you get hit for everything. Not just full rent and council tax but health wise to. No free prescriptions, eye and hearing tests etc.

[franbee]

And it's the same for pensioners too, isn't it? Everyone gets a pension of sorts depending on how much NI they've paid over the years they worked, then if it falls short and you have no other money it's topped up. If you have other money, it's not.

[dragonfly]

That seems very unfair Fran. If you spend your earnings on having a good time you can get your pension topped up but if you are frugal and save your money you don't.

[franbee]

Well it's the same with all benefits isn't it? I just try not to think about it.

However, I do think that some of these lottery wins are obscene. These multi million pound wins should be limited to 2 or 3 million, then more people could be able to win. £3 million should set anyone up with house, car, holidays, and no need to work again if they choose not to.

[Crocus]

That's a lot of people out of work, especially when there is such a big population in SA. Here we have the highest level of unemployment for 30 years! Neither set of figures takes into account people who are self-employed though, so it could be lower... What is the unemployment percentage in Germany, Ivy?


Perhaps why so many people are unemployed Jazz. The population growth is enormous, plus all the illegal immigrants walking over the border from neighbouring countries.

One of the many grants is to assist young mothers in age group 14-19 years, and now it's being exploited to have a baby because of the grant, not the other way round. They get R220 per month per child. Studies have shown that when all the social grants available are put together in a household, they could survive without a breadwinner. Typical grants are for fostering, old age pension, child grants for children under age of 6, as well as the pregnant grants. In a particular school in the Cape Province there were 30 pregnant matric girls last year in one school. They only thing not allowed is for pegnant girls not to give birth at school and babies are not allowed to be brought to school. Otherwise they have the go ahead.


This is not the ideal system because most of these grants are abused, has the opposite effect and creates more poverty in a country where only a small percentage of people are taxpayers. The second highest in the world actually when it comes to paying tax for the rest who's not paying. This was officially mentioned on the radio last week by a senior member of the Reserve Bank. He actually did an intensive study on this, called the GDI Factor.

[jazzactivist]

It is the same here in the UK, where it can be more beneficial not to have earnings or savings. However, I don't think we can blame all the people who live on benefits, as many do want to get off the hamster wheel and have the relative freedom of earning their own income, but they just can't afford to make the switch. It is a big immediate financial commitment, and if the job doesn't work out it isn't possible to just resign and go back onto benefits. The job itself has to end, or illness prevent you from working. In the UK there are also constant requirements for benefit claimants to justify the benefits that they receive, and a very ineffective system where people are frequently overpaid or not paid for months, and then they have to constantly chase around after the money and repay sections of it. It is better not to claim benefits if you really don't have to, but some people are locked into the cycle of it.

Here the last and this government intend to go the other way, crocus, and stop maternity and child benefits for people under the age of 21. I think that's a good idea because we do have the situation here where it is more beneficial for some young people to have a baby than go out to work.

With regard to saving for your old age and so losing out on the full state pension, I think that has been a thing of the past for quite a long time. Certainly for my generation of people in our 40s not many people could afford to save regularly towards our old age, and work has been so insecure that most people have uneven bits and pieces of pension provision with different schemes. Unfortunately, the state pension will probably be done away with by the time we get to our 60s too! We, and people younger than us, are looking at a lifetime of work with no chance of retirement at all!

[Crocus]

I wish it was the case here Jazz, but in giving grants to girls (some of them not much older than 14) having babies creates a lot of wrongs. As I've said they have babies because of the grants, the population growth is unbalanced, many many people are sitting home doing absolute nothing to help the economy, or themselves, but expect to receive grants for which just a very small percentage of people have to pay for, and those people paying taxes for these now-abused grants, can only pay so much and nothing more.

I have, and never had absolute not problem at all for paying my taxes but it should be used responsible and in a logic and acceptable way. To pay grants for very young girls having babies I'm not totally happy with. In stead of putting programs together teaching these youngsters life skills, to rather go to school, and try to get some kind of after school education,many now leave school, have babies and sit at home - which does nothing to help the economy, their own circumstances or that of their kids or their own basic education. That does not make any sense to me.

[jazzactivist]

I suppose it is similar to here in that many young people from poor backgrounds just can't see any real future for themselves, rightly or wrongly. With many university graduates here not getting well-paid jobs, they think "why bother to finish school and go to college / uni". All of us who have done it know that education isn't the golden ticket to a better life that our parents thought it was, that it still involves lots of hard work and usually being in the right place at the right time or being willing to ditch everything to chase work opportunities. Eventually in middle-age we generally settle into a more regular and secure routine but, although that has actually always been the case, young people today often don't feel that they can wait. They are easily seduced by the idea of media stardom and quick results. I suppose that while we think that unemployment levels in our respective countries are high, if you turn it around the figures do actually show that in SA a max of 75% of the population is employed and paying some from of taxes, and in the UK 92% of the population is.

To go with the World Cup coverage here, Channel 4 is showing a series of documentaries about the conditions in South Africa underneath the glitz. The first one is called The Lost Girls of South Africa and appears to be about very young girls being raped and abandoned in what is still a very patriarchal society. Perhaps this accounts for some of the early pregnancies, and the government chooses to manage them by offering grants for children rather than tackling the real cause - especially given the attitude towards women of the President and his acolytes?

[Crocus]

Hi Jazz, I'm not aware of such a program. Yes, many girls get raped, but I can also tell you that many girls get pregnant because of unprotected sex, and for the reasons I mentioned above. Yes, some of the girls were raped, but not all of them. How will the government know anyway who were raped and who not? It will take ages to find that out, miles of paperwork.

[jazzactivist]

It is more about what is acceptable within particular cultures. I am not saying that all of the girls in SA are raped, but if a significant number are then that could explain a wider malaise where girls and women think "why bother to protect ourselves, as it's going to happen sooner or later". That type of cultural expectation does erode people's self-worth in many subtle ways.

[Crocus]

Having babies when you are just about out of nappies yourself may be acceptable in some cultures, but to then expect from a government, no, from the taxpayer, to pay for you to sit at home, having one baby after the other, living on grants without doing anything to help yourself, or the economy or even your child in some cases, or try and give something back is not right I think Jazz. This means more and more young mothers stay home, more and more babies are born, but the taxpayers become fewer but still have to carry the country which causes things to go out of balance.

[jazzactivist]

The Lost Girls documentary is on TV tonight, crocus. Here's a link to an article in The Independent newspaper about the rape situation in SA, which may go some way to explaining so many underage pregnancies http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africas-shame-the-rise-of-child-rape-1974578.html

[Crocus]

Hi Jazz, thanks, I will have a look at the link - have googled it this morning, but haven't read it as yet. x

[jazzactivist]

I watched the documentary The Lost Girls of South Africa last night, crocus, and you can watch sections of it on the Channel 4 website www.channel4.com. if you are interested. It is the main feature today. It was a very harrowing documentary showing that 1 in 2 girls in South Africa are raped, often as young children and increasingly by other boy children under the age of 18. It is usually gang rape too. The boys are usually never convicted as they are underage, and men who rape girls are usually let out again on bail straight after their arrest. It can take years for the case to come to court. The documentary follows 4 girls of different ages and at different stages of rape. One girl is only 8 and has been raped for the second time, and has no choice but to continue living a few houses away from the perpetrators and going to school alongside them. One mum takes her daughters away from their molesting father, but can only get a shack to live in 10 mins walk from their old house, so he frequently comes round threatening them. Another father frustrated by the slow process of the case attacks the man who raped his daughter and he dies, and so the father goes to prison.

What struck me most about these girls' plight is that there are far less support services than there used to be. And there seems to be a big gap between talk and action. While there appeared to be a very good education programme in the schools about violence at home, HIV/AIDs etc, the follow up services for people affected were painfully slow and inadequate. The documentary showed good teachers and counsellors, knowlegeable mothers, and even a good woman police officer, but all were frustrated by the length of time everything took, while the girls who had been raped continued to suffer in communities that usually blamed them.

When I lived in SA rape was still a serious problem there and although there was very little official support provision for women and girls, within the anti-apartheid movement there were lots of projects, refuges, counsellors etc available. I was a volunteer with one women's project that worked in the Guguletu and Crossroads townships, and we provided emergency refuge accommodation, education, contraception and rape counselling. It was all illegal then, of course. Now it seems that as services like this have been mainstreamed women and girls have far less support and have to walk long distances to hospitals and police stations, and continue to live alongside the perpetrators.

One thing that was lacking in the documentary with everyone interviewed was any real analysis of why this is happening - why South Africa has more child rapes than any other country in the world. No amount of education and remediation services will work unless the root cause is found and tackled, even if more were available. I worked with women's projects in the Dominican Republic and Haiti and there the governments were tackling child rape and domestic violence head on by focusing on education about the myth of Latin male virility -which both mena dn women believed in. There was a tradition there that when a girl reaches puberty she is raped by a male relative, as it was believed that she had to be 'broken-in and made quiet' before marriage. This practice has almost died out there within a few years, since the government outlawed it and all support services openly include it in whatever they are dealing with, so there is no excuse or escape for the men. They have to change, and women can challenge them. I thought whilst watching last night's documentary that this might be one of the areas that could be tackled to help prevent the rape of girls in SA. It isn't the whole picture of why it is happening, but would be a start. Perhaps the churches could take the lead on this?

I would be interested to know what you think of the documentary and what can be done about it?

[dragonfly]

I watched the documentary Jazz and was appalled by it. I think the males were disgusting. It seems to be their culture to take what they want and then threaten the families to stop them talking to the police. Not only were the girls raped but then spent their lives in fear of it happening again (often by the same people) or even had their lives threatened. Some of the rapists were very young but what do you expect when the older males are doing it, even fathers with daughters. The rape of anyone can not be justified because they are poor and live in poor conditions. The police were useless. I think they need new laws and people to uphold the laws and the rapists should be jailed or have their tackle cut off.

None of the girls were pregnant though. Their worst fear was HIV.

[Ivy]

I read recently that raping a virgin is thought to be a "cure for AIDS" by some people in South Africa . So men carrying the virus seek out particularly young girls (even babies!) and rape them in order to restore their own health. I really wonder who comes up with such kind of nonsense and why there isn't a decent prevention program instead of this atrocious witchcraft stuff.

[jazzactivist]

I am glad that someone else also watched this disturbing documentary, DF. I agree with you, that it is an appalling situation. I really felt for all the girls, but especially for the young girl who had been raped a second time in her life by two local boys, as over the year of the filming you could see that she just wasn't coping and was becoming more and more distressed and depressed, but had no choice but to get on with her life with hardly any support. The few who were around to help did seem to have the right ideas, and seemed very good at what they did, but somehow there was a huge chasm between their kindness and actually doing something concrete to stop what was going on. The whole system from parents having to raise the case on behalf of their child rather than the police of prosecution service taking it out of their hands, to the idea that young men under 18 couldn't be fully responsible for their actions, to the courts letting people who had committed serious crimes out on bail or get community service, just seems half-baked. A sort of semi doing the right thing, but not on behalf of the right people or for the right reasons!

I think that there must be a number of different causes of these high levels of child rape in SA that are all linked together and require a very special solution. I really fear for what will happen when the boys who are treating girls this way become the next generation of adults who are running the country. What are their mothers thinking and doing? I watched a previous documentary about child rape and beliefs such as it being a cure for HIV, Ivy, and it seemed that this idea and other fantastic ones were perpetuated by the then Health Minister! In the short-term, it might help if some organisations like the NGOs and churches start helping women who want to to build their own houses and villages free from men, and with an extra strong educational programme for any boy children present. At least then the girls will have some safe spaces to go to.

A colleague of mine when I worked at the university was a professor of gender studies and her specialism was gender inequality and child abuse. Some of her papers were really interesting. Historically in the UK there were a lot of instances of child molestation and rape in the slums of Britain, just because of a combination of men being all powerful in their own homes and girls growing towards sexual maturity within very close proximity, often in the same room or bed. There is no keeping anything private in those conditions, and many women knew what was happening to their daughters but felt unable to stop it. There are plenty of accounts of it, but the sexual abuse of children wasn't considered to be a crime here until the 1930s. In the Victorian era part of the justification for sending girls away to work in service at a young age was to 'protect' them from predatory males within their own family and neighbourhood. Another invention of those times was organised child prostitution, which was overlooked as it was expected that if men couldn't get their sexual needs met in their own homes they would want the opportunity to have sex with other children. This attitude crossed all classes, and it sounds like the belief that men can't control themselves is still doing the rounds in SA.

I don't think cutting off men's genitals cures the problem, as it isn't really a sexual one. It is a crime of power, so a man who is determined to subjugate a woman or girl through sexual violence would still sexually assault her using anything else.

[Crocus]

This is great worry - the next generation who will run S.A., how will they think and do? Rape I think is a form of control and power over someone which I think is appalling and derogative to be quite honest. It's almost wanting to have control over the women, simultaneously not having control over yourself.

[jazzactivist]

I think what you say is exactly right, crocus, but what do you think has caused this situation in SA that it has become so endemic? It is only when the root cause/s is revealed that it can be properly dealt with and stopped.

[Crocus]

I think it's become kind of habit, a cultural habit if I can call it this way. There's also the belief that if you have Aids and rape a baby girl, you will be cured! You can now think of the consequences of something like this eh? It's horrifying to think about. Some cultures really have strange beliefs and rituals. In this morning's paper there was an article about Jacob Zuma telling the nation in a speech over the weekend, if they don't vote ANC, their forefathers will have them all killed!

[jazzactivist]

I don't think that you can just say that it is a cultural belief amongst a certain group of people and leave it at that though, and not do anything to change the situation. In Victorian times in the UK there was also a belief that having sex with a virgin protected people against syphilis, and as virgins are younger and younger these days these ideas sound like a modern corruption of those beliefs. Like a mishmash of some African traditions to subjugate girls and imported colonial hoohaa still doing the rounds, combined with a very patriarchal society. The stereotype of the tough South African man, white and black, has always been prevalent too.

There was always a very high instance of rape in SA, including the rape of children, when I lived there - quite often by the security forces, as well as within communities. The rape of black girls and women was always overlooked, and hardly ever treated as a crime, and for white women and girls it usually only made it to court if she was raped by a black man. It sounds as if there is a combination of factors at work, and the current government and its President aren't doing much to alter the situation, as they benefit from it. I don't think that SA history can be ignored, or people can be expected to just shrug it off now that they have political power.

I know about how institutionalised rape has always been there, as my first boyfriend's father was the District Surgeon for the Cape Province and had been so for 20 years - a truly vile doctor who frequently talked at the dinner table about how he enjoyed examining rape cases even though the matter would never come to court. He was also the signatory on the death certificates of anyone who died in suspicious circumstances in prison, and would often leave the house at night with the comment "there's going to be a death at the prison". I went out with his son on and off for about 5 years at the same time as volunteering with a women's organisation, and provided information to the ANC about this doctor on an ongoing basis, and years later he was questioned at the Truth and Reconcliation hearings using some of my original evidence. I was asked to send a letter from here verifying it, but didn't have to appear as a witness as there were so many others. I heard that he fled to the Lebanon (where his wife was from) around the time of his hearing, and later died. If that was the attitude of one of the 4 men at the top of the medical hierarchy in the country then, it is no wonder that that attitude towards rape has trickled down by example and become twisted in people's minds, although it is no excuse to continue it.

Is there any way that your church could do something to help local girls who have been raped in your area crocus? Or does it happen already?

[Clunkshift]

Shouldn't the discussion on rape in S.A be separated from the original thread?

[Ivy]

Clunk I don't mind if the discussion s this turn but maybe it will be easier to find in the future if you wan to look it up

[jazzactivist]

I don't think so clunk, as some of us think that there are higher instances of rape in poor communities. Crocus had commented that young women in SA receive a basic grant income for having children and this led to my commenting that many girls and young women are raped in SA, so this could result in more births. Perhaps the government there is avoiding the real cause by shelling out money. Conversations naturally move on from one topic to another through various links, and it is important to be able to link different issues together to get to the real causes, and so the correct solutions. It would be nice if you as a man could comment on the high instance of child rape in SA and what can be done about it.

[Crocus]

Well the thread is about unconditional basic income, which brought about unconditional basic income also given to girls who were, or are raped, who has to be at home to look after their kids etc.

I always say that thread discussions are the same as visiting a group of friends, chatting along. The topic changes because of different angles by different viewpoints.

But anyone is free to put up a separate thread on 'rape' if they feel like it. x

[Crocus]

Hi Jazz, regarding your posting about the church doing anything to help these victims - yes it happens already. There's quite a few denominations in our town and there's an inter-denominational church where everyone can go, although all churches/denominations are open to anyone. One is not always aware of the rape victims because they don't always go to the police, so it makes it rather difficult.

Our church, or actually one of our ministers, has now started a youth club for anyone who wants to join, no matter your background etc. It's open to all the youth of the village. They get together every week, have started a band and a choir as well. The minister has children of his own and he has a passion for the youth and is always busy with organising camps, get togethers and initiated this youth club for the youth of the town. It's usually packed with teenagers and I must say it seems they enjoy it quite a lot. It's much better than sitting at home with nothing to do, or walking the streets, get into trouble or cause trouble of some kind.

[jazzactivist]

It would be good if a proper place of refuge was available for any local girl who was raped though, rather then just general youth clubs. It is very difficult for young people to talk about these things amongst the general discussion and activities of a club, and then have to return home to danger. Judging by the documentary, what these girls need is a practical place of safety where they can escape to and live to see out the court case and complete their schooling, and receive proper counselling. A place where their mums and female siblings can visit them. Perhaps church members could consider offering a spare room to a girl in that position, or perhaps the minister could do it in his house? There must also be lots of unused servants quarters dotted around within safe people's gardens too, which might be able to be used that way. It shouldn't be the case that the girl has to go to the police before it is taken seriously, as that can be so hard to do.

I worked in a refuge in Edinburgh that was made up of two flats specifically for 5 young women aged 16-21 who were homeless as a direct result of sexual abuse. Just their word and seeing how it had affected them in their behaviour and confidence was enough to get a young woman a place. They could live there for up to 2 years, until they were well on their way to changing their lives for the better. It didn't always work and some left early, but quite often it did and just that break away from their home life and area with counselling and advice available made a huge difference to them. If you were willing to raise it with the rest of the congregation, maybe we on RM could do something to support it?

[Crocus]

But if they don't got to the police and don't talk about it, no one will know about it.

Jazz, the youth club does a lot of good. It's much better than going to the "club" on the outskirts of the village where horrid things are happening, which is a popular drug infested place - the youth club I mentioned offers the total opposite. It's safe, its fun, it's positive, it's relaxing, there's activity, it's trying to help the youth of our village to do something positive over weekends. It's better than having nowhere to go at all, roaming the streets, getting into trouble.

Regarding safe homes, yes we have a few in the village - I know one of the ladies who's home is a safe home - and the have a lot of support, both psychologically and financially. Here's also a place which offers support for the homeless, so support in our village is quite on the go.

[jazzactivist]

You know that a girl / woman has been raped when she tells anyone, crocus, or writes it down anywhere or draws pictures relating to it etc, not just if she tells the police or other authority figures. Many girls don't speak about what really happened to them for a long time even with counselling, or they ask for advice on behalf of a 'friend' when it is really for themselves. It is also up to adults to watch out for signs of rape or abuse in the girls' attitude and behaviour such as a sudden loss of confidence, more tears or anger than usual, inability to speak coherently about related issues, changing the way they dress to cover up more, not wanting to go outside etc., as well as more extreme behaviour slike self-harm.

When I worked as a counsellor for the young women's project and also for Rape Crisis and Incest Support groups in Edinburgh most of the women that I worked with had never directly told anyone, let alone the police, although if they had been abused as children they had always left a trail of clues for people to pick up. Rape needs very specialist and safe support, not just the usual support provided for young people's issues. On watching that documentary it seems that not very much is being done at all for girls who have been raped, and what little help there is is very thinly stretched, and that was in a city, Port Elizabeth.

[Crocus]

Hi Jazz, I'm well aware of all you've mentioned about rape victims, and yes these safe homes I mentioned offer most of what they need with regard to counseling, etc. It's well organised.

[jazzactivist]

Are you involved in any way, crocus? I really felt for these girls on the documentary and I think no woman could ignor their plight, not just of those 4 but the thousands of other girls that the programme alluded to. I thought that it might be the case that we might be able to do something to help through RM, since we are mostly women members, and as you are right on the spot and clearly a compassionate person that you might be able to organise it at your end?

[Crocus]

Hi Jazz, oh dear, I don't have what it takes to this kind of work - I don't think my emotions will handle these kind of problems very well, but that's not to say I'm not fully aware of their plight and not worried about it. So no, I'm not involved. With all the organisations already in place here, starting another organisation might be redundant. We are in touch with things though with OH being involved in the school governing body as well as the governing body of another organisation where these matters do land on the table, as well of course through our church.

[jazzactivist]

I've put my name down for more info on the Channel 4 website from organisations working with child rape victims like Action Aid, but would prefer to do something more directly. I have worked for some of the large international organisations, and while they do help they are never as direct as small, local ones. We are going out for a meal next week with two South African couples whom I met years ago through work. One is a white couple and the other African, and all work in education. They should have come here last month but were held up in Europe with the volcano situation. I meet up with them about once every two years whenever they come over here with UNESCO, so I'll be interested to find out what they think about it too. It does seem a particularly drastic thing to be happening. I was really struck by the big gap between understanding and action to stop it.

[souter girl]

I find it heart breaking and sometimes when I am in a reflective mood I just wonder at the accident of birth that makes us who we are here and not victims of violence or abuse or civil war.

[Crocus]

I think the gap is not as wide as what rape is almost an everyday occurance Jazz. People working on this, doing programs, social workers, whatever it is that's being done, I think can't keep up with all the cases. The rape cases are just to many which may give the impression that there's not enough understanding or the will to try to stop it.

[jazzactivist]

It seemed to be that the programmes of education and quality of the counselling was really good, much better than in the UK for sure. However, no-one seemed to be even considering why it is happening and trying to deal with it from that angle. They were just dealing with the situations that were presemted to them, and not thinking about it in any depth. It would be easier to help girls if there was a shared understanding of why it is happening in society and then a staged programme of assistance and education based on that.

[Crocus]

Those who do help these victims of course come in at the end while it must actually be prevented in some way from happening in the first place, which I think is a huge huge task. I know there are programs in place where actors do shows at schools around the country, taking on this serious matter of rape as well as drugs, to try and educate youngsters of school age, but of course they can do only so much. Living in such a vast country with villages, towns and cities spread over wide distances, also makes it somewhat difficult.

[dragonfly]

Things won't change until the country's laws are changed and perpetrators get just punishment. But how can this happen when the leader advocates it. I know it is as much about power as sex but if it had happened to my daughter cutting of his sex organs would give me some satisfaction. The program really disturbed me and I have been having bad dreams about it. I would love to get involved in helping the women and children but think until the laws change and punishment dished out it would be sole destroying to know it went on on a daily basis and you were only mopping up the continual mess. What a frighening place to live.