Prince Harry's racism

[jazzactivist]

Hi all! What do you think of the revelations about Prince Harry's racism? It is a bit worrying that he seems to be a bit of a 'chip off the old block' of Prince Phillip, who is always making inappropriate comments. It seems odd to me that someone as young and well educated as PH would use racist language at all, as the term "paki" has been offensive and unacceptable for all of his life! I can't see how the army are going to discipline him seeing as he is a member of the Royal Family though, and as for the excuses by the the Royal press office and prime minister that we have to take the context into account, well... Anyone else who used this term at work about a colleague would lose their job as it is against the law. What do you think should be the best course of action?

[Crocus]

Hi Jazz, I was wondering who this person was? xx

[Clunkshift]

I am staggered by Carol Thatcher's remark, which while made in the workplace is totally unacceptable.
Certainly if I had made a reference to anyone bearing a resemblance to an outdated figure on a marmalade jar while at work, I would receive instant dismissal.

The spoken word is merely the outcome of what is foremost in the mind, so the worrying point is not that she said the G-word, but that it was even in her mind.

Just like Harry's faux-pas, it is not a question of political correctness but simple respect for mankind. We have all heard racist words and terms, but sensible people learn to put such things from their mind.

One of my favourite bible verses is "their sins and iniquities I will remember no more". It is not a matter of forgetting but a matter of actively not remembering.
Forgetting is passive and negative while not calling to mind is a positive mental attitude.

[jazzactivist]

I agree with you, clunk. Carol Thatcher should be dismissed from her job, and so should Prince Harry. I agree that people who still use these terms are selectively not remembering. People who are affected by these terms themselves have, over the past 40years, raised how they feel and why these terms are derogatory, and that is how they come to be fazed out or changed. It has nothing to do with 'political correctness', although politicians and people in the public eye should set excellent examples of how to speak and behave towards others.

[Ivy]

I wonder is it a topic on your media as well ? the sad story about Bishop Williamson and his fellow bishops who were ex- communicated and this process was now reverted by Benedict XVI. He was not ex-communicated for denying the holocaust but lifting the ban now makes the Pope look like a Nazi in the eyes of a lot of people here. What do you think about this?

[Clunkshift]

Ivy,
If only you knew how many photos of "Benny" with his arm raised, waving to the crowd have been captioned "the huge crowd before him made Benny think of his youth" (with obvious connotations to the Hitler Jugend and similar youth rallies), have been printed in our media. The poor man is always followed and scrutinised for any Nazi tendencies so that he can be ridiculed.
So in light of that, I was amazed that he brought Williamson back into the fold; it is nothing short of a public relations disaster with regard to Catholic - Jewish relations.
As for Williamson, he is either a fool or a publicity seeker and is not respected by any of our media.

Sadly, in the British view, Pope Benedict will always be viewed as a closet Nazi. Not because Nazis are in any way feared, but because it is the easiest way to write him off without bothering to find out anything about the man.
I am sure the German press is much more sensitive to any incorrect views or actions than we are, because as a nation we are very shallow in our stereotypical views of other nations. In a typical opening gambit to an office conversation we may say "everybody knows that..." while actually meaning "I know nothing whatsoever about this person but here is my biased opinion..."

I imagine that some Brits would be pushed to name more than 2 European leaders but some would just about know Sarkokzy, Merkel and Berlusconi but would struggle to put a first name to them.

[Ivy]

What is puzzling me about this is that the four Bishops have been excommunicated for not accepting the second Vatican counsel. Now they have come to some kind of agreement there is an uproar for taking them back because one of them made a very stupid and untenable comment. One hasn't got anything to do with the other. Now Angela Merkel has asked the pope to make a clear statement, she is accused by Catholics being anti Catholic. (her father was a Lutheran Pastor in the GDR) . I can't understand why these things are mixed up all the time. Of course Germany has a double interest in this matter. 1) Holocaust is THE German topic for nearly 60 years. 2. ) the pope is of German origin, but he made it clear in the past what he thinks about the Holocaust and anybody accusing him for being a Nazi is plain daft. Sorry. I am not a Catholic myself but he never made any comment that made me believe he agreed with murdering and torturing people whether innocent or not of any crime. So why should he agree with the bestialities of the third Reich?

As for ignorance of other cultures: If you asked 5 randomly chosen people in a shopping area here only 2 of 5 would be able to name the British prime Minister and who Anders Fogh Rasmussen is none of them would be able to tell you. Media stars Like Obama and Sarkozy would probably be known to 3 out of 5 but George Cloony would be known to all of them.

[bonnie]

:) I think too much is made today of other peoples cultures and what is wrong and what is right.
When i was younger ther wasn't a proplem with other peoples races, cultures.
It was common to call the English Poms, the irish-paddies, the Welsh-Taffys and the Scots-Jocks. I had and still have many Afro Carabean friends who were called b--c--s or darkys. It was all said and meant as friendly banter.
:(What really annoys me today is our churches are not allowed to ring the bells on a Sunday Morning, whilst the Muslim faith are allowed to to call over loud speakers thier sermons so many times a day which in turn echos over the whole town.
In one part of the town if posters are put up on the big display boards the muslims deface them, yet this is ok, yet if the white population were to do this we would be charged with criminal damage.
7 out of 10 schools in our town are taught English as a SECOND language now. WHY.
If other cultures decide to live in Britain i think they should ajust to the British cultural ways. Saying this we should also take into account others cultures and faiths.
:confused: Lastly it is well known if someone from another ethnic culture are offended by something thay don't like they can shout Race Discrimination, but if the white population are offended by something we can't and just have to accept this. WHY.

[Katelb]

bonnie you are a girl after my own heart,I heartily agree with everything you have put above;the incident with PH ....if we can believe the media.... took place around three years ago,why bring it up now? why has it taken three years for the person concerned to complain about it,it apparantly took place in a private conversation and is therefore nothing to do with anyone else.
My OH spent almost all of his working life in the RN and latterly taught foreign Navy's ships construction;admittedly,he has been retired for some years now but during his time as an instructor,there were all sorts of nicknames etc bandied about amongst his students ,and they used to take the micky out of him too ,but they had a fantastic relationship and all passed their complex exams with flying colours.
If it was 'today' and he was in the same situation,I expect he would have been court marshalled ,and many of his students along with him and that is because we have been told that we musn't do/say this that or the next thing,we are no longer allowed relative freedom of speech in case we insult someone of a different race or religion.
I agree with the saying"when you go to Rome,do as Rome does" and to have respect for our fellow men not be told what we can say or not say especially in private.
Right,rant over now!!

[dragonfly]

Am I right in thinking that PAKI is short for Pakistani? Just an abbreviation?

Prince Harry calls a mate "Our little Paki friend" and is forced to apologise two years later. This guy was a mate of his for heavens sake!

Am I right in thinking that "Brit" is short for British? Should the Sun Newspaper be forced to aplogise every time it prints the word Brit or The Brits are coming? Is the word Brit offensive?

Is "Scot" Offensive? "The Scots are coming". Another Sun Newspaper Football Clash Headline classic.


What about Ozzie? Kiwi? Pommie? Limey? Where or when will this lunacy end? The Cornish call all holiday makers "Grockles" Anything wrong with that?

If a Pakistani called you "His Brit friend" Would you feel offended? Would you demand an apology on National TV?

Of course not.

Del Trotter refers to "The Paki Shop" in one episode of Only Fools and Horses. (Now overdubbed for UK Gold with the offending word taken out). (The episode when they build a nuclear fall out shelter).
Should Sir David Jason now apologise? Should the writer John Sullivan apologise? Should the BBC apologise?

What about the Fuzzywuzzies? "Dads Army"

What about "You stupid Kraut"? Fawlty Towers.
Both still being broadcast regularly with no overdub.

The Idiots are at it again trying to stir up racial hatred. It's just madness surely?

I'm happy being a BRIT, BRITISH, ENGLISH, POMMIE, LIMEY or whatever. I don't care a fig.
I only care when I'm called a racist.

I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO NEXT YEARS "BRIT AWARDS" ON THE TV. LUCKILY, THANKS TO THE ZEALOTS, RACISTS AND BIGOTS THERE WILL NEVER BE A "PAKI AWARDS". Oh no indeed, because all the Pakis will be at The Brit Awards. And us Brits won't mind at all will we?

There's something rotten in the barrel and nobody in government or local politics has the guts to stand up and say "GROW UP THE LOT OF YOU".

If you agree then pass this on. If not then you still have the democratic right to delete it. (Well for the time being anyway).

[Katelb]

Good for you DF.x

[bonnie]

Well said DF.

[Katelb]

I just wondered how a radio or TV announcer would tell the listeners that the next piece to be played by....... is Debussy's 'Golliwogs Cake Walk' ?? I am quite sure Debussy meant no harm to anyone when he put that name to his delightful piano piece. Just a thought.

[Crocus]

If the more or less 3 and half billion people on earth all were one colour, one culture, one religion, one language, it would've been very boring! Fortunately life consists of diversity.

One should perhaps accept different religions, cultures, languages, no religion, whatever. And show respect for someone's person for what he/she is, from where he/she comes, etc. etc. But that's in an ideal world and it doesn't happen, which is why hurtful remarks are made. It's to know when to say something, whether to say something. It's to to think before saying something , and to think before reacting. That to me can make the big difference.

It's something one must work out for oneself, treat someone as one would like to be treated. It asks for deep digging and deep digging comes with knowledge, experiences age and wisdom. xx

[Katelb]

Yes Crocus I agree with you....my Granny often used that saying" Do as you would be done by" I am sure that the media and television have a lot to answer for since in many cases they blow things up out of all proportion in order to create a good story that will sell their newspapers or whatever. Also ,the saying "Look before you leap" comes to mind especially with reactions to what we see as the shortcomings of others.x

[jazzactivist]

I disagree with the idea that name calling is all just a bit of banter. It conjures up an immediate image of a stereotype of someone of that nationality, which is usually innacurate and unpleasant, and one which tabloid newspapers use to fan the flames of xenophobia. It all depends on whether the person being called the name is of a culture that is part of the powerful norm of that society, or not. Name calling, even in fun, of someone who is in a cultural minority, or even in a majority that doesn't have much power, is intended to be a reminder that the person is not like the name caller and somehow inferior. Therefore, calling a white British person a "Brit" in Britain isn't offensive as they are part of the cultural elite, whereas calling a person from Pakistan (or more often people who are not even from Pakistan) a "paki" is offensive. It tells the person that they are not the same and also that the speaker can't be bothered in their superiority to find out if the person is actually from that country or pronounce it properly. Often, if challenged, this type of name calling is followed up by teasing about the person's perceived culture. For example, if someone responds with "Don't call me that. I'm not a paki" then the next phrases are likely to be along the lines of the colour of their skin or the food that they eat. Likewise, the term "Scot", or even worse "Scotch", is considered to be offensive when said by someone English due to the history of the power held by the English government over the Scottish nation, and in Scotland there is a lot of discussion about this.

If you don't agree with this argument then think about why there isn't a shortened, derogatory term in England for someone who is English. However, if you are called a "Brit" whilst in a different country it can be offensive and is often intended that way eg the term "Brits Abroad" conjures up the stereotype of loud, complaining, boozy people who only want to eat British food, and never leave their hotel complex.

In this day and age we are all educated enough to be aware of the power of language and the importance of intercultural co-operation. Members of the Royal Family and BBC broadcasters, who are always representing Britain, should know his even more than everyone else. It isn't a laugh and a joke to be lazy and refer to people by offensive, old-fashioned names or shortened versions of their real or imagined nationality. It is easy enough to ask where someone is from and learn to pronounce their name and nationality properly. And also to respect their origins and culture.

[dragonfly]

Jazz I agree with you if the names are said in a derogative way but most of the time they are not, they are meant to be friendly. The shortening of names has gone on for ever not just because we are lazy but because we like happy banter. I am happy to be called a Britt in any country I visit whatever the meaning.

I respect other origins and cultures and know there is good and bad in every culture, especially our own. My reply was an e-mail I received and thought it was funny but true.

[souter girl]

How much of all this is "POLITICAL CORRECTNESS" gone out of proportion??
How often have I found that when I tiptoe round an issue I am more likely to cause offence than when I am relaxed. viz. OH had an aunt with only one arm (never grew beyond the elbow) She used to wear a prosthetic arm for "formal" occasions and never let it get in the way of anything she wanted to do. So how awful did I feel when I offered to "lend a hand" with the washing up?!? Fortunately she laughed and THEREFORE so could I! Our washing machine repair man has a glass eye (like Gordon Brown) and my best friend was mortified when she said (a propos of a spring that looked as if it was coming loose)"Watch out or you'll have your eye out!" I know this is not the same as racial abuse but we have to stop pussyfooting around so-called minorities at the expense of our own religion/culture e.g. bell-ringing - that's what churches do and if you don't like it you don't live near a church! Let's get back to calling Christmas what it is, having Nativity Plays, bells on a Sunday morning, and freedom of speech (without gratuitous offence) - and if offence is not intended, let's not all cry "shame" and vilify the perpetrator. I for one think Jonathan Ross and Russell Brand's foul language much less acceptable that Prince Harry's remark or Carol Thatcher's (both in PRIVATE) SO THERE!!

[bonnie]

I have to agree souter girl i think much of this is down to political correcness. If we think back to when programmes such as Love thy neighbour or Till death us do part, which at the time were acceptable on t.v, what sort of reception would they receive today i wonder.
Then we have the commedians who would use peoples nationalities eg. the irishman, scotsman and the welshman, these jokes were not said to offend anyone but were taken in fun by people. I come from a scottish family and have never been offended when called a half jock. martin is irish but doesn't take offence at being called a paddy. yet today this is seen as not being politicaly correct.
As for prince harrys remark why did it not come to light when the word pakki was used instead of three years later?
As for Carol Thatcher whom i personely cant stand, her remarks were made off camera so why if she had offended someone in the room with her remarks about gollywog did they not say " Carol i find that remark offensive ". why then go and complain to the beings above? in my opinion this was done to cause controversy and make a news story.
All creeds, colour, race and religeon deserve respect, this i agree. BUT i say when in Rome do as the Romans do. Try to fit in with whoevers country you are in. Respect thier ways and embrace thier culture. I am afraid in this country this doesn't happen. We have to tread carefully in our ways as to not offend other cultures. But i think other cultures should try to fit in with our way of life. eg. try to learn our language being the first thing.
Lets go back to how things used to be. church bells ringing, father christmas NOT mother christmas. Blackboard in schools instead of now using white boards as the word blackboard is offensive to the coloured people. Respect other peoples faiths even if you don't agree with them and most of all FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

[Crocus]

I think one can talk, debate, reason until the cows come home, but inbetween all of this one thing stands out like a sore thumb, tolerance. There's no tolerance towards fellowmen. Tolerance for someone's colour, culture and religion. And with intolerance comes the fact that just about everything are politicised. Up to the point of even a church bell.

If there's consensus amongst the community including all races, it boils down to humanity which in principle has nothing wrong with it.
But then the question arises, what about freedom of speech and freedom of religion?
Does freedom of speech means one can say and hurt people as and how one feel to do so? But, does freedom of speech also means that one should accept everything being said, as hurtful ? And, what about democracy?

Who decides who and what are accepted? Don't "these people" whoever they are, also want to be accepted for what and who they are?

In life there will always be the fact of being against "it", or being for "it" whatever "it" is. It's the fact that one could find it in one's heart to be willing to move the centrepoint a bit, to compromise, to live and let live, to tolerate and not to judge whether because of humanity or religion. The world is full of both these examples. xx

[jazzactivist]

I agree with crocus, that if we want to live in a fairer and kinder world then first we have to work on our own attitudes towards others and that may include changing the type of humour or language that we use, and challenging family and friends and public figures about their's. It isn't difficult to treat all people respectfully, but it always amazes me that some people argue for the right to be cruel to others, even unintentionally, than make the effort to change their own attitude or language. What is acceptable language is not individual choice. We do live in a society that is now becoming more culturally mixed and everyone has to adjust to this - not just one group of people. As white, British people we don't lose our own culture when doing this, just enrich it, but we do, of course, have to stop feeling superior and start thinking about what our culture actually is and the good and bad points of it. Which parts we want to keep and which to get rid of. This period of adjustment can feel quite scary as we have to ask and feel around for the right approach, and it can seem that nothing that we do or say is exactly right, but there is a big difference between 'dropping a clanger' in the examples that Souter Girl provided and having a laugh at someone else's expense to make ourselves seem better, which Prince Harry and Carol Thatcher both did with their comments.

After WW2 the psychologist Gordon Allport was commissioned to create a framework to help governments and citizens understand how the holocaust happened so that steps could be taken for it not to happen again. What he discovered was that it wasn't just Hilter's 'top down' decision imposed on people, but a range of socially acceptable behaviours amongst people combined with external economic and national identity problems that paved the way for it. His theory, which is still applicable today and can be applied to behaviour against any disadvantaged group, is that if we as a society allow jokes, negative talk and offensive name calling then it is easier to excuse the next level of behaviour and so on, until extermination of certain groups of people becomes acceptable if the conditions are deemed right. His Ladder of Oppression looks like this (read from the bottom):

Extermination
(lynchings, pogroms, massacres, ethnic cleansing, genocide)
Physical Attack
(attacks on people as ‘targets’, mob violence)
Discrimination
(Constitutional, Institutional, Group, Individual)
Avoidance
(forgetting, overlooking, neglecting, avoiding, evading, refusing to interact)
Verbal Rejection
(joking, negative talk, offensive / abusive terms)

Crocus and I probably have a fairly unique insight into how divisive racism can be to a society, as we grew up in South Africa during a time when offensive name calling, jokes, ignoring, mass arrests and even death for the majority black African people was legally and socially acceptable. But you don't have to live through extreme circumstances to know that racism, or any other sort of discrimination, is wrong and try to take your own steps to stop it becoming socially acceptable.

[Katelb]

I agree 100% with your sentiments SG, very well said.

Jazz,with the greatest of respect to you,are you absolutely certain that both Prince Harry and Carol meant their remarks to be taken so seriously,I would like to think they were both made without malice,but the media has deduced otherwise.

[bonnie]

I do have to agree kate. i don't think harry would still have his friendship with the lad in question if it was said to insult his friend.

[jazzactivist]

My point is that comments like these are never meant without an element of malice. There is always a hidden power agenda, whether the speaker is deliberately conscious of it, or not. PH's comment was derogatory as all three of the words that he used about his colleague had a belittling effect given the context, even though he said them in a humorous way. Calling his colleague "our little paki friend" is unacceptable, as it emphasized his colleague's lower status in relation to PH's and made an unneccessary point of his culture, plus using a known racist term. Why couldn't he just say "this is my colleague..."? PH is in one of the most powerful positions in the UK, and as a result also has a senior position in his troop. He also has a grandfather who often makes racist comments in public and is taken to task for it. Therefore, he should know better than to make this type of comment. As for the colleague in question, he is unlikely to say that he was deeply offended given the power dynamic between the two of them and possible future repercussions. If we turn it around to apply this situation to ourselves, how many of us would be happy to be referred to as "our little pink friend" by a senior colleague while we are at work?

CT's use of an outdated racist term to refer to a skilled tennis player is inexcusable, but she seems to be quite an ignorant woman, and would also probably try to argue that her position as MT's daughter is to uphold the British traditional use of this word. She also doesn't have as much of a role in influencing social norms as PH. Even though she said this in private though doesn't make it right.

Both of these people made the comments while at work on publicly owned property and are paid using public money. Anyone who works for a public service is required by law to uphold anti-discrimination policy by not using derogatory or inflamatory language. If a social worker or teacher used this language at work they would lose their job. Therefore, both PH and CT should be fired from theirs.

This is a very interesting debate, as it touches on so many other issues that are close to our hearts and need working through to create a more enlightened society. Thanks to everyone for getting stuck in and participating, whatever our different views.

[bonnie]

I do believe we are now living in a country where we as british people are now the foreigners in our own country. It is very true that we should embrace all cultures but i don't believe ther cultures think they should embrace us. why is it we can be called racist yet if we " cry " racism against another culture we are ignored.
Not all that long ago it was ok to say nicknames without causing offence, but i think it is just because PH said it all this fuss has been made. without any malice being intended. when i am called jock or martin is called paddy by friends we don't automatically think oooooooo he must be be calling us that with malice and take offence.
Regarding good and bad points, all cultures have these, not just our culture. for example the bad point i find regarding this is when a foreign country is being reported on the news for whatever reason they all speak good English but when they come to this country no one can speak our language. i think whatever the language of the country you are in you should at least try to learn the language of that country even if it's only a few words.

[dragonfly]

Jazz you are to deep for me probably because you have seen racism at it’s worst but as you say it is nice that we can debate our different views.

I am not a racist and do tolerate other cultures but I do object to my traditions being stopped because they might offend someone who has chosen to live here. It has already been said ‘when in Rome’. It seems to me that other nationalities are allowed to keep their culture but we have to change ours, in our own country. I think this causes resentment and racism.

I think PCness is stopping me from embracing other cultures, as they seem to want to destroy mine. I would not willingly be offensive but if I slip up I am only human and make mistakes. In an ideal world we would all be able to keep our cultures and live side by side in harmony. But it takes both sides to get along and not just one side giving in to the other.

I have colleagues at work who have different coloured skin to me who I really like but I don't know if I should call them black, brown, coloured or something else. I darn't talk to them how I talk to my 'white' colleagues for fear of them taking it the wrong way. I don't want to upset anyone and my fear of offending is stopping me from being friendly with some of them. I don’t want to have to stop and think before I speak especially when we are all joking around and having a laugh. Most of us have nicknames and usually they are picking up on looks. To name a few Tich, shorty, chalky, baldy etc and it is all taken in good fun. That is part of my culture.

I don't think Carol Thatcher is a racist and don't think she should be sacked for coming out with a silly remark, after all who of us hasn't said something we regret. She apologised to the people in the room and it is wrong that it got blown up in the media and I don’t think she should apolgise to anyone else. I grew up with golliwogs and am quite fond of them so if I used it it would be as an endearing term. I know it offends so don’t use it but don’t know all the terms that do offend.

[Clunkshift]

Just some observations on the BBC; the only reason Carol Thatcher lost her "job" was that she was not under any contract, unlike messrs Ross and Brand that were under a contract of employment and can afford good solicitors.

I am broadly in line with Jazz on this subject, because I believe that the casual clanger reveals what is really in the heart and mind.

I would be interested to know what othe nationalities call us (comments Ivy?). We Brits (a short term that I use to exclude Southern Irish citizens) like to think that everyone else loves and respects us, but that is not the case.
Hollywood uses the English voice to portray bad guys, because we are seen by others as dishonest, lying and cheating people in our political and business dealings.
In Europe we are known to be habitually drunken and violent with low standards of morality and particularly arrogant in our failure to attempt communication in any other language.
In the Middle East we are again seen as untrustworthy, arrogant and morally corrupt.
In India we are seen as the Imperialist oppressors that have pillaged their country and we are drunkards who live on pork and cook all our food in animal fat.
In the far East we are seen as meat eating monkeys, or worse.

Universally the British man is known for his homosexual and masochistic tendencies and our frigid and shallow approach to relationships, while the British woman is known as an easy lay and ill mannered, whhile our children are ignorant thugsand unmarried teenage mothers.

I'm actually relieved only to be called 'sal rosbif' by a Frenchman, at least he only criticises my hygiene and diet, but I do know that we are not seen as the paragons of virtue that we assume.

If I continue to think of a Frenchman as a 'frog' and in bring to mind all the short derogatory words used to describe every other nationality, it will always be near the tip of my tongue and will simply display my ignorance every time I open my mouth.

Being part of a crowd is easy, but being alone among a foriegn crowd is not.
I am grateful to every foreigner that receives me with dignity and respect, in spite of everything he has heard about my nationality.


Clunk x

Mark 7:18-23
Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, "because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?"
And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness".
"All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

[jazzactivist]

Sorry if my argument sounds a bit 'deep' dragonfly. I am only trying to explain that this isn't only my personal view, that there is a history of research supporting the idea that if we want to live in a kinder, more integrated world then we need to recognise where our personal attitudes and language needs to be changed, or it can escalate the problem into the worst possible outcome.

I think that there is a lot of scaremongering in the tabloid papers about British culture being destroyed in favour of 'other' cultures in the UK, and this is intended to get people worked up and divided. But what exactly is this 'British' culture? Scottish, Irish and Welsh people have been spending years thinking about what makes up their culture and promoting this both within their communities and abroad. Not all aspects of these cultures is good, but an effort is being made to explore what is, for example, specifically Scottish music, food, dance, language, lifestyle, history, ideas, inventions etc. This thinking has come about as all of these parts of the UK have at some time been dominated by English politics, laws and language, so they are speaking back and saying "actually, that isn't our culture. This is what we are about...".

The thing is that thinking about what makes up English culture is very new to English people, as we have often held the superior view that it is blatantly obvious what makes up English culture and everyone in the world should know it. But England isn't a superior colonial power anymore, and people from different cultures don't know the good parts of English culture as no-one openly shares it with them. People are just expected to know, and speak the English language too. So the gap is being filled by the stereotypical views that others hold of us, as clunk described. People who come to the UK are quite often afraid of what they have heard about modern British people. I know that I was, and I was born in England! Do we want to be thought of as dirty, drunk, lazy, thoughtless, moany, oversexed people, or can we each take steps to understand what is is that we want to keep about English culture and show others at home and abroad in an equal way?

Saying that people who come to the UK, or even who are born here, but are of a different culture should fit in with English culture and like it or lump it is just a hangover from old colonial attitudes. British people have taken versions of 'British' culture all over the world and forced people in their own countries to adapt to it and our language, and still do so now with the 'Brits Abroad' attitude. So should we complain if sometimes people come to the UK and expect to retain their own culture and eat their own food, raise their children in their own way, listen to their own music etc? In the same way as accepting guests into your home, the responsibility is on the members of the host country to be welcoming and open and willing to share.

[Katelb]

Try as I will,I cannot agree with the fact that if someone drops a clanger of a racist nature ,there may be an element of malice behind the remark;perhaps that is because I trust someone ...until I find them out... and I think in the two instances under discussion,it would be nigh on impossible to prove either way that any insult to race or creed was intended.

Years ago when my mother lived in London,she went shopping in a well known store in Wimbledon.She wanted some brown shoe laces and when she assistant showed her a pair,she said 'No those are a bit too light in colour ,have you any that are more nigger brown?' I need hardly add that this description of the colour she wanted was certainly not used maliciously;the reaction of those around her was one of horror that anyone would dare to use the word 'nigger' and there was quite an issue made of what had been said. My mum ,bless her, was covered in confusion when she realised what was causing all the anguish and apologised profusely,it was duly accepted,she bought the shoe laces and went on her way.

I am with you DF,I cannot believe that either of the remarks made by CT or PH had any malice behind them at all; I too have a golliwog DF made during the war out of a black stocking by my mum, a lovely toy.

[jazzactivist]

Even though your mum wasn't a malicious person, kate, and the description slipped out of her mouth unintentionally, the 'malice' is a more distant version: that of not bothering to take notice when certain words and phrases are no longer acceptable as they didn't directly affect her. People are never to old to learn. Your mum could have said "No that's too light, do you have any in a darker brown?" But she chose to use the description "nigger" without thinking. She could have easly redeemed herself by saying something like "My goodness, I'm sorry, no-one uses that word now do they? I don't know why I did. Do you have a darker brown?". No-one gets it right all the time. Therefore, everyone is sympathetic to a 'clanger', if the speaker immediately tries to rectify it. Sometimes this can lead into ever more bungling, but if you can laugh about your ineptitude with the people around you then it usually turns out OK.

I appreciate that many people now feel nervous about saying the wrong thing, so don't feel that they can make a genuine effort to befriend people of difference cultural origins, and this makes the problem worse. The best thing to do, I find, is to leave out any words or questions relating to origin at first, and as you get to know the person better you will be able to pick up the cues from them as to how they like to be described or addressed. When you know them better and have developed a more trusting relationship you will be able to ask more directly, and be willing to answer their questions about your own cultural background so it isn't all one way. It is a bit of a minefeld, as everyone is still working through it and some people say that we have got over labelling people and the best equality is one where racial difference doesn't even come into it. However, some people also say that if ethnic differences aren't accepted then this is even more racist. The best way forward is to make the effort to treat people equally and well, even if the method is a bit imperfect. And ask what people prefer, but don't expect people of different ethnic background to yourself to have all the answers, as chances are that they are working through it all too.

[Katelb]

That is fair comment Jazz she could have used an alternative description for the colour she wanted,but to me it seems sad that the word she used was not acceptable,and the same with many other expressions which are now not deemed to be PC or 'not used in case of offence' etc.I don't really have the patience to delve back in time and find out WHO it was that told us not use the various expression which supposedly cause offence,someone must have started it all and now ,you have to be so careful what you say it is bordering on the ridiculous.It seems the world has become extra sensitive nation to nation.

[Ivy]

I quite agree with you Kate. When I was a child we had a sweet called Negerkuss. (Negroes kiss) chocolate on the outside and a sugary frothy filling within on a wafer. Now this same sweet must be called Schaumkuss (foam kisse ) because it might cause offence. Well what is so offensive with a sweet that is the must have on every childs birthday party for as long as I live? The Word Negroes was acceptable when I grew up than it was changed to blacks which now is supposed to be not PC as the skin colour is not actually black but browns but browns can't be used as this was the colour of the Nazi party.Africans is supposed to be the word obviously leaving out of count all maximally pigmented people who do not come from Africa and who might be Americans and ignoring the fact that there are Africans of white skin..... and behind all this the prejudices can flower and bloom as before. Foreigner is not to be used either. we must say it's a person with migration background- Well so am I but still I have German citizenship and so did my parents and grandparents. My great grand mother was French and her husband Bavarian the rest of my ancestors were from Prussia, Denmark or Hamburg which was a free town.:confused: So what is the good with changing the acceptable word every now and then but not actually getting rid of the actual prejudice behind it?

[jazzactivist]

The changes to language etc are not imposed on us by someone who just thought them up, but problems with certain words are raised by the people who are on the receiving end of them. Their protests lead us to reconsider whether these terms are really fair, and kinder alternatives are presented for us to use by the people who are most affected. This can be any group in society that is disadvantaged in some way eg disabled people not wanting to be called "spastics", people with a learning difficulty not wanting to be called "mentally handicapped" etc. Therefore, what is acceptable, or not, changes fairly continuously as each generation grapples around for a better description. No-one is an expert on this, so the choices of new words and phrases isn't always perfect and as everyone learns more about the situation we all add that new knowledge to the mix. It is healthier to be struggling around for the most acceptable word or phrase, no matter how uncomfortable that is, than ignoring the requests of the people most affected.

"Negro" was a word used by slave owners and the American government of that time to describe slaves (who were a mix of different African and Asian bacgrounds). "Nigger" was a southern dialect corruption of this word. So it's no wonder that when African-American people in the US began fighting for their civil rights they stated that they wanted a complete break from the term, as it was associated with their degradation. In the 1960s the term "Black" started to be used, with the capital B showing that it was more than just the colour of someone's skin, but a political collective noun to describe people who weren't White by the people themselves. This became the Black Power movement. Then after thinking about it some more, some groups who didn't have dark skin and weren't part of the civil rights movement, but were also discriminated against eg Hispanic people, campaigned for the term "People of Colour" and this was common in the 1970s and 80s. Now this has been replaced by an individual's choice of origin eg African-American or Italian-American. This is becoming more the case in the UK too, with people referring to themselves as British-Asian or Caribbean-British. However, this still leaves a question about what collective noun to use, so the terms "Ethnic Minority/ies" or "Minority Ethnic" is generally used. There is nothing PC about it at all, just people exercising their right not to be called a term that has a derogatory meaning. I think that any of us would like to preserve this right for all of us.

I think that you are right, Ivy, that there is little point in just changing the word if the prejudice remains, but language is one of the most powerful tools that we have so surely getting rid of an unsuitable word can go some way towards changing the prejudice?

[Crocus]

But what is wrong with being black, white, brown, Afro-american, Caribbean-british or whatever? That's how a particular person was born. And why are people so sensitive about their skin colour, their culture, their language, where they come from, to jump at the slightest something which might look like racism? Who's fuelling this racism fire? Those who are directly chatting or talking to one another or those watching and listening from a distance?

One of the burning questions regarding racism would be how a European person would react in Africa, and vice versa, who lives either in Africa or Europe for at least 300 years?

[dragonfly]

Jazz I don’t expect foreigners to give up their culture particularly their religion when they move here but I don’t expect to have to change mine either. I do expect them to try and fit in (which a lot have no intention of doing) as I would expect to fit in with them if I moved to their country. I didn’t say ‘like it or lump it’ I said fit in. All my life I wanted to live in a village and listen to church bells on a Sunday morning even though I am not a Christian. I don’t think it fair when we can’t have them incase it offends. I don’t object to the noise some Muslim temples make (unless it interferes with the bells).

All those things that Clunk said about British people are true but only a minority not the majority of people and certainly not me. I don’t mind what anyone calls those people and if anyone calls it me then it doesn’t bother me for it shows their ignorance in judging us all the same. I know you are thinking that is what we do to foreigners and you are right, some people do but not all. I know some very good foreigners and some very bad Britts. I have never felt superior to other nationalities for I know there have been some very rotten Britts who I have been ashamed of but there have also been some wonderful people and talking of slavery white people might have caused it but it was also white people who got it stopped when blacks were still selling each other. Slavery was an abomination but isn’t it time we all got over it.

I agree with you over the derogative word nigger but can’t see anything wrong with black or brown for that is the colour they are. I am not white but a pinky browny colour but I accept white as a descriptive colour and am not offended. I think the, I don’t know what they want to be called today so I will call them brown and not meaning it to be derogative, should start to be proud of their colour and command respect instead of cribbing all the time. I think PC is causing more trouble than it is curing.

I don’t agree with you that all comments are out of malice, they could be ignorance but not always malice.

I would like nothing better than for us all to live together in harmony and enrich all our lives but I am a realist and I can’t ever see it happening except on a small scale with individual groups. I have a brown niece and she said she definitely would not marry a brown man, is she a racist.

Jazz I admire you and respect your comments and wish I could think more like you but we both have had very different experiences. I have had some bad experiences and seen some nasty things Pakistani’s have done so it is probably clouding my judgement.

[eleanor2]

i am realising how hard it is for my daughter to live in a land where she doesnt know the culture or the language very well.yet she thinks it si important.to adopt the french way of life,learn the language.join in social occasions.be extremely friendly to the locals.work and pay your way.then you might just might be accepted.i think it is down to each individual to say they are going to adopt a country and fit in.or go to live in a country and still want to live your own way.quite often not liking or caring to be friendly to locals.yet it seems it is only in good old G.B we are forced to give up our own culture and ways to accomodate people from other countries.i know many immigrants.some of them are the nicest people you could meet.others arnt.there is good and bad in all of us.in each country and each nation.if i am nice to my neighbour the chances are my neighbour will be nice to me and vice versa.being told to conform to what suits those settling in our country.doesnt help.encouraging friendly relations from both sides would help.the most shocking thing i have ever seen was pictures of what placards said being held by extremist muslims.not in their own country but in London.the remarks wernt just racist.they were evil and extremely violent and provocative towards English people.the thing that shocked me most.the police were just standing there.there was no reports in the paper that one person got arressted for racism.i really do think the answer is as much expecting immigrants to be friendly and conformist to the country they move into.i have made very good friends with people from many countries.they have been friendly and easily got friendship back.it is no use my daughter demanding the french people accept her and be nice to her.she has to go out and befriend and be nice to them first.

[bonnie]

I find it is very easy for foreign people in this country to shout racism at the slightest thing, be it colour or wherever they come from. it seems to me as i have siad before it is ok for ppeople in our country to be called racists but have you ever listened to the black hip hop singers who use words in thier songs such as nigger. this must mean that coloured people be it a small majority are racist to thier own coulour.
Also going back through history regarding slavery, Ainslee Harriot is a good example of his black ancestors actualy owning slaves themselves. is this not once again an example of the pot calling the kettle black [ no pun intended ]
It seems to me a lot of racism is directed at our country by as eleanor states eg. the extreamest muslim religion but dare the law intervene NO because they would be classed as racist.
As crocus so rightly says what does it matter what colour a person is, to me it doesn't matter at all but i do expect other cultures to intergrate into our country as they Would expect us to intergrate into theres.

[Ivy]

Ee I have to contradict you at the point it is only GB where the natives have to give up their way in order to suit the incomers.In Berlin the city with the highest Turkish population apart from Istanbul and Ankara (!) schools have programs for Turkish children and other migrants to enable them to earn a degree. German students are not allowed to partake! Mind you it is government funded. There are many schools in Germany where German is the first foreign language whereas Turkish is tuition language. Muslim population raised a large scandal when the government decided not to allow female civil servants (teachers in particular) to wear a headscarf while on duty. Well female students in Turkey are not even allowed to enter the University with a headscarf!
The problem with the Turkish population here is that they are from a very low social rank, came here in the 60s to earn money never planning to stay. Now the second and third generation is growing up and finds itself torn between east and west. If they were to go back to Turkey they'd find a totally different society than the one they remember. It always reminds me of the Amish people in America. They are German by origin but they conserved their old habits so much that they still live a life that we Germans only know from open air museums and they speak a language so old fashioned that we would not understand them. If you shut yourselves off from new influences this is just bound to happen.

[jazzactivist]

Don't you think that divisions have been caused by people inexpertly trying to find a way forward that will suit everyone and not managing it very well, though? Parents who want separate schooling for their children, no matter what their race or religion, probably think that they are protecting their children from having to come into contact with the extremes of a way of life that isn't theirs. Local authorities listen to this to some extent, but also always take the cheapest route of least hassle. I haven't noticed that British people are losing or being forced to give up our culture just because people of different cultures come to, or are raised in, the UK. But white, British people seem to worry that any questioning of their own way of life is a demand to change, and respond to the natural questioning process by closing the gates to protect... they're not sure what. This idea that British culture shouldn't be questioned by anyone is a superior attitude. Why not? Isn't the best way forward to integrate and try to take the best from all the different cultures?

Every situation is always much more complex than the press would have us believe, as they tend to present situations using two extreme polarities in order to be as brief as possible, and part of this approach is taking the risk of inflaming people's feelings in order to sell more papers. The problem comes for our society when people use that as their main source of information and believe that is all there is to the issue, and if this is combined with a bad experience with someone of a different racial orgin then it can create a lot of resentment.

We can all probably point out that we are not like the image of the 'Brits Abroad', as RM tends to attract educated and thoughtful people, but there are many more people (I'm sure that we can point to them in our own families) who do fit that image at a range of different levels and now tend to travel quite a lot, so that image is the main one that people outside of Britain have of the people who live here. Sometimes I have heard people from different (ex- British colonies) countries say that they were brought up to believe that British people were good people, but know from the press and what they have seen that we have lost our way so want to come to live here to help us out! Do we want people to have to wade through this stereotype of us to get to know us? Or could we take the step to look at what we have in common with people from different cultures and integrate the good things that we learn with our own?

[bonnie]

Jazz i do agree some people believe some parents want different schooling for thir children to protect them but i don't believe they are helping thier children in the long term. only last night on the news a head has resigned as she believed that ALL children no matter what culture they come from should all attend the same assemly. the muslim children had an assembly of thier own. I think she was quite right. the assembly was for ALL cultures but yet muslim parents wanted thier children to have a seperate assembly. This is not trying to INTERGRATE into a society. When the public were asked about this situation on the street many muslim teenagers who had left school sid thet they had attended assemlies when they were at school with all the other children, they weren't segregated and couldn't see the point in trying to keep the children apart.
Many muslim parent have now removed thier children from the chool in protest as they want a seperate assembly. I think they are causing the children harm in the long term as the children will think it is wrong to mix with other cultures. A classic example i think of people comming to this country but still not wanting to become part of the country.
Once the children are at home i think it is good to keep your own culture whatever it may be alive so the children know thier own culture, but when they are at school, this is a good place to learn others ways.

[Clunkshift]

One of the difficulties of the written word, as in these posts, is to accurately discern the mood or attitude of the writer because words do not easily show emotion as a facial expression can.
International e-mails and telephone calls are a good test of my innermost feelings. If I am speaking to someone on the phone and I fail to understand his accented English, it does not mean that he is uneducated, simply that he hasn't learned English from someone who sounds like me. If I think of the colour of his skin when he speaks to me, I am on the verge of racism because I have allowed that thought to be part of any judgement I may make about that person.
It is even worse with a misunderstanding in an e-mail; speakers of English as a 3rd or 4th language may not understand the subtleties of meaning and a request can look like a demand, while an inquiry may seem like a first step to litigation. The only way to accept these misunderstandings is with the thought that the person I speak to is at least as educated, cultured, and trustworthy as I hope to appear to him. If I allow any ethnic or racial stereotyping to colour my thoughts, I will appear arrogant becuase my innermost thoughts will affect the way I respond.

Most business people around the world have become used to the double talk that we British employ and phrases such as "with all due respect" and "my dear fellow" are recognised as the patronising cr*p that they really are.

If I allow myself to make a mental comparison between a top tennis player and a golliwog, at best it is childish and at worst it is dismissively patronising.
You really haven't lived until you have had a Korean or a Nigerian tell you that: "you white guys all look the same to me", then it strikes home just how we must sound to them.

In the modern economy Arabs are not "tribal rag-heads fighting each other in the desert" as I have heard them described, but potential wealthy clients with a good grip on world economics and a heritage of mathematics that pre-dates anything that Europe can claim. Chinese are not a mass of peasants who wear a dull grey uniform and wave little red books, they are entrepreneurs and industrialists who have a better can-do attitude than the USA. We might make better motor cars at present but they will soon overtake us in that and add it to the list of everything else that they make for us. I may not like their diet or their fashion but I doubt that they are too impressed with mine either. They are the ones with the money and they count respect as a big factor in dealing with people.

My closest colleagues at present are Indian and Venezeulan, and niether were born here. Together we work for a Malaysian client, a Saudi Arabian client and a Vietnamese client. I am probably in a British minority in this building but that is usual in this industry while working for a US company which is 'based' in Bermuda.

Racial terms or derogatory remarks on the grounds of colour, race, religion, clothes, physical attributes, culture, gender, sexual orientation or disability are not permitted. Any infringement would result in dismissal because of the harm it would do to the company. I don't see this as a retrograde step, all mankind are my brothers and sisters and they all deserve mutual respect.

Prince Harry shows his ignorance every time he opens his mouth and in this age of communication, his words are heard or read worldwide.

[jazzactivist]

Well said, clunk. I think that it is just common sense to move forward and not cling to old-fashioned and harmful language. When I worked in the Dominican Republic my colleague and I were the only white people from overseas in the area. Nonetheless, local people constantly got us mixed up even though we were nothing alike in age or looks. This wasn't their ignorance, it was just that they had trouble framing us both as very different British people based on what they had previously experienced and heard. In another country that I worked in British people were called "Bummers" - a derogatory term that was meant to refer to our laziness and willingness to have sex with anyone. Travelling, especially for work, really brings home to you how fragile our image and culture really is in the wider world.

I don't think that it is just the muslim parents that want segregation, though, bonnie. How many times do we hear of white, British parents moaning that they don't want their children to be involved in muslim prayers, learn about different lifestyles, or eat different types of ethnic food in the school cafeteria. Not so long ago there was an uproar by some parents in Yorkshire as their children were in the minority in a local school and were expected to take their shoes off in school, sit through Islamic prayers and had an option to learn Hindi and Punjabi languages. Even though the school had an excellent record for learning and behaviour their complaint was that the school wasn't like that when they were young and should retain a "British" bias. However, I think that these children had an amazing opportunity to learn a different way of going about learning and a chance to learn other languages that might be useful in later life. They learn the "British" way in their own families, so their parents were denying them new chances that they hadn't had. If we are saying that people who come to settle in the UK should adopt our way of life then what actually is it that we are asking them to do? Because it isn't clear. Only the unpleasant aspects seem to stand out and who would want to give up their own culture to adopt those for themselves and their family?

No-one can say that everyone of a particular race or culture is all good or all bad. There are extremes and dodgy behaviours justified as culture in every nationality. But it is the host country's citizens' responsibility to act first to welcome and adapt to make sure that people feel included and valued.

[Ivy]

What I seem not to get this: A community nurse looses her job for saying a prayer for a patient who did not complain about it, but British school children are expected to sit through Muslim prayers at school. Hot cross buns are forbidden to be handed out by schools before Easter whereas ethnic food has to be tolerated in English school canteens. What is wrong with learning German and French as a second language? why does it have to be Hindi or Punjabi? After all we still live in Europe and as much as I like to widen my horizon ( one of the reasons I am posting here) I do not see the point why integration is supposed to be a one way track. Why not lentil curry AND hot cross buns why not church bells AND Muslim prayers? why not German AND Punjabi?

[eleanor2]

ivy thaks for pointing out what it is like in Germany.in France as far as i know they do not allow any religions to be in the school.i England religion in school is fastly diminishing.but in an English school i would not be pleased if my grandson had to go through muslim reverances and prayer.if he went to live in a muslim country i would expect he would have to. a few months back an indian couple joined our exercise classes for seniors.they are none christian.they are lovely.within a few weeks she was coming in and hugging an old lady who had been off sick.her hubby was telling me one day about his job.he had worked for over 20 years for a company in England.he said i got the nick name indian paddy.he said i just had to find out why i got this nick name.it was because his birthday was on st patricks day.instead of feeling prejudiced against he thought it was funny.i can tell why this couple love living in England and why they get on with everyone.they dont go round with long faces feeling prejudiced about.they get in there chatting and helping.being friendly and caring.everyone at g.e.m.s love them.this lady as seen the queen about three times.she loves telling us her exploits when she worked in london.they were in trafelgar square new years eve this year.they just get on with life and do what they can to enjoy it.

[Crocus]

Reading through all the posts here, people's experieces etc., again one word comes to my mind, that of (zero?) intolerance towards fellowman. Perhaps self centred can also be added to this. No living and let living, very little forgiveness, not grudging someone their culture, language, their being, or religion. And I think as long as people are going to live from themself, for themself, these kind of things will happen no matter what steps or measures are taken to prevent the phenomenon called racism.

It's over sensitivity and a feeling of inferiority I think - "don't look at me, don't talk to me, because when you do, you're a racist", especially when it comes to being of different colour.


When someone finds himself in a corner during a debate or thinking differently, and has no more merits, the racism card is drawn.

[dragonfly]

We had a young Muslim girl start at work who came to my office and I asked her how she was getting on. She said she liked the job but no-one spoke to her. Since I was friendly to her she often comes to talk to me and I told her it was her fault that they didn’t speak to her as she just came, got her head down and got on with her work and didn’t speak to anyone. She obviously looked different with the way she dressed and people thought she didn’t want to mix. I told her to go and say hello to people and she would find they were friendly which she did and was amazed at the outcome. I also introduced her to some of the younger colleagues who she now socialises with. She is one of the nicest young people I have ever met but if it was up to her family I would not be talking to her. She was born and reared in this country but never mixed with British people until now so I think it is her parent’s fault that she didn’t know how to mix with us not ours.

We have talked at length and discussed her religion, and my lack of it, as I was curious to know, and we accept each other’s differences. I was surprised how much like the Christian faith hers is, and I suspect others too, and my feelings are that if all religions lived by what they believe and had tolerance (I agree with Jazz on that) to each other the world would be a better place. I think it is extremists on all sides that give them a bad name.

Reading these posts I think it shows that most of us have tried to get on with them even though we think the onus is on them and we like the nice friendly ones and disregard the others as we would with our own race.

The race card really gets on my nerves. I can say I dislike a white colleague but I will be sacked if I say I dislike a coloured one. This is race discrimination to me. I do not like all whites and I do not like all coloureds. This does not make me a racist. It does make me feel penalised and uncomfortable and gets my back up hence slowing down the acceptance of them.

The only thing that will change my mind is intelligent conversation (another thing I agree with Jazz) not some politician I can’t stand telling me I have got to.

[jazzactivist]

I totally disagree that the onus is on the person who is different to the norm to make the effort. It is up to the people who are part of the norm to be open and welcoming and make the effort to include people. It is actually racist to put the burden of all effort, social interaction and explaining onto the person who is different, so your advice to the young woman that the problem was her fault and it is up to her to speak with people would be considered to be racist if you hadn't been there alongside her doing the introductions, dragonfly! The outcome was good, but the explanation to her was a bit unclear about your intention to include her. As I have said before, though, no-one is perfect at this, it is constantly becoming more aware and trying our best that counts.

Everyone can say "I know one and they're OK" and, of course, most people no matter what their race or culture are nice people. But it is possible to say that you like one or two people that you know and still hold a prejudiced view in general, and not moving on from this generalisation causes the problem. We need to start to view people and situations that are different to our norm as a positive opportunity to learn more, not a threat. Then we won't feel that we lose anything, only gain.

People often seem to feel that it is one rule for white people and one for people of ethnic minorities, but that isn't the case. It is fine to dislike any colleague, but it is how to say it that counts. If you voice your dislike and bring the person's race or culture into what you say eg "I hate so and so as she is always twittering on her mobile phone in her Indian language instead of getting on with the job" then that is racist as you have made the fact that she speaks a different language to the norm in that environment a feature of your complaint. Whereas if you said "I hate so and so as she is always talking on her mobile phone instead of getting on with the job" that could apply to any race equally, even if the person that you are speaking about is of a different race to you. The same would apply if you were bringing someone's age, gender, disablity, sexuality etc into it. All that is equired is to think before you speak or act to check that you are not using someone's difference to make your point.

I agree with you, Ivy, that there should be an equal mix of all cultural signifiers, such as food, in public institutions. Most Asian food that is served in canteens doesn't have religious significance, but Hot Cross Buns do - lovely as they are. So my guess is that this decision was made to try to even up the religious bias by someone who wasn't all that knowledgeable, and at the end of the day in the UK we are relying on untrained local councillors to make these decisions that affect all of our schools and public services.

Of course, many ethnic minority people are not fully clued up in what is racist and what isn't either, and are also confused about what is genuine British culture and what is covert racism. But they know when they feel uncomfortable, sad, angry or over responsible. Sometimes white people find ourselves educating them in this matter. Often people of an ethnic minority, especially if they have come to the UK from another country, are grateful if anyone makes the effort to welcome and befriend them and don't feel that they want to damage that friendship by asking people not to say certain words. Sometimes they internalise the problem and think that it is better to just go along with it for the sake of harmony. In your example of "Indian Paddy", eleanor, that whole term is racist as it makes a feature of the fact that the man is Indian (ie different) and the nickname "paddy" is a racist one for an Irish person. Could his colleagues not have just learnt his name and used it? The fact that he was laughing about it was just an effort to get on with the people at the exercise class, as anyone would who is new to a group. But why should he have to do that at all? The most appropriate thing to do would be to show respect and learn this new friend's real name and use it.

[Crocus]

Everywhere we go, we leave our fingerprints.
On hands we touch, on plates, walls and books,
There’s no getting away from it.
When we touch something, or someone, we leave a sign of our identity.
Help us today, wherever we may go, to leave a fingerprint of our hearts.
Sincere fingerprints of fairness, of compassion, of understanding and love.
of charity and that of showing interest.
Sincere fingerprints of being friendly, of honest involvement, and may our touch enrich someone today. XX

[jazzactivist]

That's a great quote, crocus. One that it would be handy to remember.

[Ivy]

My granny, who had a very difficult time during the Nazi regime, told me as a child "People can only insult you if you let their words or behaviour insult you" I am not 100% sure I can live by this dogma but a bit more of that would make life a lot easier. Mr "Indian Paddy" is a fine example for that I think.

[Katelb]

Yes Ivy,I would go along with that.Most people,when visiting another country will naturally want to 'go along with' the ideals,religion and customs of that country,it is therefore quite reasonable to hope that anyone either coming to live in or visit this country would do something similar;it seems however that we are all guilty of being oversensitive over some issues instead of adopting a 50-50 basis ,and giving others a chance and not being so ready to 'accuse' all the time.

I too enjoyed the mr "Indian Paddy " story,and you are right Ivy, a few more people ...of whatever race and creed...like him and there not be so much PC to have to worry about.

[jazzactivist]

That's the whole point, though. We should be worrying about it and changing our ways so that people who come to live in the UK don't have to "go along with" unsuitable names and attitudes. It really isn't any trouble to find out what someone's name actually is and use it, is it? We would all expect the same respect from others.

When I first came to the UK from South Africa as a young, white woman a young man that I worked with in a homeless shelter befriended me and asked me how to pronounce the name of the then South African president P.W. Botha. I told him that it was pronounced "Boo-a-ta". He then, not unkindly in his view, started to call me by the nickname of Botha every time that he saw me. I felt very offended by this, as I had been involved in the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa and would have had nothing in common with an apartheid upholder such as P.W. I was very nervous about explaining why I didn't like it, as I didn't want new colleagues in a new country to know about my political past until I knew that I could trust them and felt ready to tell them. Remember that my activities had been illegal in SA at the time. Eventually, I plucked up the courage and told him privately why I didn't like it. He didn't undertand at all, and just said that he knew nothing about SA politics and that in the UK everyone has nickames. I didn't know if this was true or not, so just kept quiet. Soon other people started to call me Botha too, both at work and outside it, even though my name is easy to pronounce and familiar to them. It seemed that they preferred to label me to make sure that my difference stood out, rather than use my real name.

Alongside this many people also assumed that being white and from SA that I was racist and would make racist comments in front of me. If I asked them not to they would act surprised and usually then never speak to me again. It was too difficult to argue my position effectively as I didn't feel ready to reveal myself, or able to explain the SA political situation to people who seemed so ignorant. I didn't have all the answers as I was still trying to make sense of some of my own experiences too. I was also deeply shocked that people in the UK who were supposedly progressive and multicultural in attitude could be like this. My colleagues couldn't link their sympathies for homeless people with the discrimination in the UK against people of different races, which seemed so obvious to me. Eventually, I moved on and lost contact with my old colleages and times have moved significantly forward in raising awareness of racism. Everyone now knows that it is wrong, even if they don't understand why or stick to it. A few years ago I bumped into my old colleague by chance at a conference, and what did he say to me but "Hello, Botha!", even though he is now the Director of a large charity and really should know better.

[dragonfly]

Sorry Jazz I still think the onus is on the person who wants to be accepted more than the one accepting. I think we have shown that we are welcoming and have not put all the effort on them. I have always made the first move to show I am friendly, to anyone of any race, then it is up to them. I also strongly disagree that it was a racist remark to the young woman who know my intentions perfectly well. I have only told you in a few words what went on and you are judging the whole thing without knowing the all. I also said the same to a British woman. My young friend is very pleased I did help her and enjoys coming to my office for a chat as I can’t get to hers. I judge everyone as an individual and do not judge on colour. Culture is a different matter as you have to talk in general.

I know what a racist remark is and don’t use them but nothing is said when it is the other way round. It surprised me very much to hear Indians calling Pakistanis, but they can get away with it. There is a lot of unfairness going on on both sides. Four colleagues were dismissed at work. All appealed against this but only the Turkish guy who played the race card got his job back (there is also a lot more to that).

Surely the understanding starts with knowing one or two people before you can understand the many. One friend has changed my views slightly already.

There is one rule for us and one for them but it is not our doing. A lot of them don’t like us, don’t like our ways, and don’t want to mix with us. I don’t agree that most are not fully clued up on what is racist; I think they know perfectly well what they can get away with. I know this for a fact from the Asians I have mixed with.

I also think they accept nicknames as it is meant to be friendly as we ourselves have nicknames. As I have always understood it having a nickname means you belong. I think it is good of Eleanor’s Indian friend to laugh with us instead of causing trouble and alienating himself. I fear it is others reading harm into it, not him, that causes the trouble.

I'm sorry you had it tough when you came to this country and sorry you had a nickname you didn't like. I would not call anyone anything they didn't like.

Jazz we are never going to agree on this subject as we both have very strong opinions so rather than cause ill feelings between us I am dropping it.

[jazzactivist]

It isn't just my own personal opinion that I am using to present my argument, dragonfly. I only included my own experience to show that even in my circumstance, which is more complex than most due to my having white skin, it is wrong and hurtful to assume that people are happy with a nickname chosen for them, or because of being too lazy to learn how to pronounce the person's real name.

I have worked with race / ethnicity / culture issues for many years, often teaching professional adults and community organisations what is and isn't racism according to the law, so that they don't fall foul of it. I have worked with a lot of white people and also groups of ethnic minority people, so what I say is gleaned from my knowledge of both. I agree with anti-discrimination law, but always point out that there are also moral and humanitarian reasons for changing our attitudes and language to keep up with modern needs. This seems very complex but isn't. All it is, is thinking before we speak and act, not making assumptions about a whole group of people based on experience of one, and to treat everyone with the utmost respect and dignity. It isn't hard to do, but somehow causes a real furore in the UK.

I hope that some of my comments and practical suggestions have encouraged the resisters to think a bit more about the issue. I don't mind giving up on the debate, as I think that I have worn out all that I have to say on the matter. "Thank goodness" some of you will be saying!!

[eleanor2]

jazz the man was talking to me alone.all about his job and experience.he need not have mentioned his nickname but how he described it i feel it made him feel like one of the group cus they all had nick names.he is indian which he is proud of so doesnt see that as an insult.then the paddy bit associating himto st patricks day.someone had bothered to take note of his birthday,quite often i really do think it is how we view and angle on something.this couple are so happy and settled.they very quickly became an integral part of the club as they are members of our society.i can see them being good neighbours as well as good friends.their son has married a white English girl and they talk of her and their grandchildren proudly.they obviously know how to be happy.not carry around a load of baggage that cries prejudice me and them.you know if we examine our lives we could probably all say we have been prejudiced against in one way or another.how we get on in life is how we deal with these situations.