different cultural concepts

[jazzactivist]

Hi all. My Turkish friend has just left to return to her husband in Scotland. We had a great time while she was here, but did come up against some cultural differences that I found a bit hard going...

Firstly, my friend was looking for a compendium of board games to use in an airport. Her plan is that when she is waiting for a plane she can engage other waiting passengers in having a game or two and a chat! We found a shop that sold several and she made the elderly woman assistant bring out every single compendium in the shop while she looked at each in detail, tried to read the instructions, and then didn't buy any of them! I would have bought one just because the assistant had gone to so much patient trouble, but my friend just dismissed it saying "That's her job!"

Next we went into a lovely small shop where the owner makes her own natural health and cosmetic products. My friend was interested in a body oil which might help her arthritis. When the woman showed her the bottle and opened the tester for her to try, my friend pulled up her nose and turned away shouting "Euch! That smells horrible!". I thought that the smell was lovely - a very 'English' combination. I felt so sorry for the woman who had made this product and had such an animated reaction from a potential customer, especially as there were other customers in the shop. We just looked at one another in mutual horror!

Then we went into a charity shop and were asked if we would like to buy a raffle ticket. My friend asked me what a raffle is. I explained that you pay for a ticket and might win a prize, but that it is OK if you don't as the money goes to charity. My friend looked shocked and said "This is mad! Why would you give money and not get anything for yourself?". The woman at the counter had a go at explaining the concept using the book of prizes, but my friend wasn't convinced and didn't buy one, just waving her hand to say No.

Finally, my friend smokes (a lot!) and, as she isn't able to smoke in enclosed public spaces, or in my house, she constantly smoked as we were walking around outside. I engaged her in a bit of a chat about changing attitudes to smoking in the UK, and pointed out as an example that she was the only person smoking in the street. However, her experience so far is in the west of Scotland where quite a lot of people smoke in the street, so she just thought it strange that this wasn't the case in England. To me, smoking in the street is really tacky and a bit embarrasing.

Unfortunately, I didn't get around to broaching my concerns about her life with her husband, as she does seem to love him a lot. Probably just as well, since, although I like to think that I am very tolerant of cultural differences, I did struggle with her displays of a lack of politeness in shops. Maybe I am just too polite. What do you think about the above examples, and have you had any experience of cultural differences that have left you squirming? How would you explain an abstract concept like politeness to someone from a different culture?

[Crocus]

I wonder if one can Jazz, because what we accept and know as being polite, may not make any sense to a different culture at all. We've got a lot of talks on this in our country. With 11 languages, and almost as many cultures, being misunderstood is very easy. Perhaps also the reason why different cultures don't always mix as are expected, because there are to many different angles to one aspect, let alone life in general. xx

[franbee]

One of the things I find difficult is the difference in attitude towards timekeeping. I think generally the British thing is to try to be on time for appointments etc, but other cultures don't seem to have that, so it affects everyone if people don't stick to their appointed time.
I seem to remember reading somewhere (was it on here?) about a country (South America?) where they have British time (on time) and local time (later). Remind me someone...

[Oola]

Blimey I wrote a website about social etiquette in other countries, and it's amazing what's acceptable. For instance, in some places it's perfectly acceptable to stare at people on public transport, or to spit in the street. In some cultures, if you receive an invitation to dinner it's impolite to arrive at the stated time; you're supposed to turn up around 15-30 mins after the time.

Jazz at uni I was surrounded by loads of foreign people, and the difference in attitude was quite apparant. My greek tutor, when she didn't like something would be VERY dismissive and shrug and wrinkle her face up. In this country I think we'd take it to be very rude, almost arrogant, but I think they're just much more emotive. Perhaps in Turkey there's more of a cultural hierarchy. Maybe your friend believes that a shopkeeper or craftsman is below her, and that she doesn't need to show mutual respect.

I do think though, that efforts should be made to understand and adapt to our culture when you're visiting. She may not think she was rude, but she was. Perhaps next time be a bit more emotive; if you think someone is out of line, tell her. Explain why, in our culture, empathy and respect is important. Don't be embarrassed, she'd only do the same to you if you were visiting her in her country, wouldn't she? The trouble is, everybody thinks they're right...

[Crocus]

Hi Oola, yes, you are right about everbody thinking they're right, because it's what's familiar to them.... Which is acceptable because all the thousands of cultures worldwide can't all have the same "manners" and habits so to speak. Something I can't face is people spitting in the street, well spitting at all actually.

I don't mind people arriving a bit later than the stated time, please not earlier! My in-laws usually arrived an hour or more earlier when they were coming for lunch. I don't like that. Rather come 10 minutes or so later, the extra few minutes are always handy. xxx

[jazzactivist]

Timekeeping is a really interesting one, isn't it? When I worked in the Caribbean there was no set timing for meetings etc - just morning, afternoon or evening. It all seemed to work out OK, though, as everyone did it. Whereas, a friend of mine who went on a working trip to Japan said that to be even 30 secs late for a meeting was considered to be very rude. I agree with you, crocus, that arriving too early is as impolite as arriving too late. And what about the concept of being 'fashionably late' for a party?

I like to think that I am very understanding of cultural differences, but I really hate it if people are rude to others whatever their culture. Confidence with English language must also come into it, and perhaps my friend feels that she has to be more expressive with her body language and speak very plainly in order to be understood. But, on the other hand, she worked in politics and travelled to a lot of different countries so must be trained in etiquette, but perhaps not in shopping etiquette! I really struggled with understanding the cultural mores in the UK when I first came here too, as growing up in SA, and with parents who were always concerned about appearances, I was taught to be polite at all times and always 'do the right thing' in public. British culture initially seemed to be a minefield to me and I was always getting stuck. There do seem to be class differences in the UK in how people treat one another, with more directness in social interactions acceptable within working class communities, which would be carefully masked in middle class communities. My friend lives in a traditional, small, working class community, with a man who has extreme social difficulties, so perhaps she has also mis-learnt acceptable shopping behaviour through him.

[keepersdaughter]

From personal experience I think it important to at least have some knowledge of cultural norms and customs when in a foreign country. When we lived in Italy for example, it was not polite to just walk into a shop and wander around and pick items up without first asking 'permission' of the shopkeeper, nor did street vendors like you to pick up fruit or veg. say and examine it and picking out your own, it was considered insulting I think that you would think they were selling you anything other than good quality. Even taking a bunch of flowers can be fraught with mixed messages. You should never give a bunch of crysanthamums to anyone, as they are considered funeral flowers and it would be like handing someone a wreath. I could, and actually have started, to write a book about my experiences and situations I've found myself in living overseas. Trying to dig deep to find the humour in some of the situations sort of Bridget Jones ish in many ways, though been in the pig poo more often than I like to count.

[Crocus]

How late is "fashionable late"? I remember when I got married, I was frantic to be at the church on time (Get me to the Church On Time comes to mind here). A friend told me that I had be at least an half hour late (!), which horrified me! On the strike of 4 I walked through the church door.

When we visit the UK we we always listen and look because we are the visitors, so try to fit in. Of course people would notice us, because we speak a different language for starters, and when we speak to them, they immediate know that we are not British. I was also taught to polite at all times, do the right thing, whatever it is (!). xx

[Ivy]

There really are differences even from your country to mine. For example it is considered very bad table manners not to use fork and knife together at all times. If you are having soup hold the spoon in your right hand and put the empty hand beside your plate NEVER under the table... If you didn't know this, you may have offended people in Germany without even being aware what you were doing.
Maybe your friend is a bit extreme and I believe one should try to behave as much as locals do, as possible when you are in a foreign country. So she should make an effort . But with a husband like hers who does not encourage her contacts outside her house , how is she to know she is behaving in a way other people feel are irritating.

[Crocus]

Hi Ivy, I believe in using knife and fork together, putting it neatly alongside each other on the plate after finishing your meal, and not licking your knife. That's something my mum was so strict on! Very interesting but confusing, all these different cultures with different habits.x

[jazzactivist]

That is really interesting about the polite way to eat soup in Germany, Ivy. In the UK it is considered impolite to rest your hands or elbows on the table when eating! So, I am sure that I have offended German friends many times in not knowing this. When I grew up in SA, although everyone knew that formal eating is done with both a knife and a fork, it was considered trendy to cut up the food and then put your knife down and eat with your fork in the right hand (as was often seen on American soap operas!). This was also more acceptable in Muslim households. Also, barbecued food was eaten with your hands, no matter what the occasion, and I do smile a bit if I see people in the UK trying to eat it with a knife and fork. I try to copy what I see people doing if I am in a different country, or with people of a different culture, but it can be difficult to get the subtleties right.

[Rustic Pumpkin]

This is a fascinating thread!

Having lived in the USA and Iceland, I've had my share of "cultural diversity" to deal with. I do remember when living in the States that when invited to dinner it was, as in this country, customary to take a hostess gift. I quickly learned that a small gift basket of home baked goodies was most acceptable and this became my gift of choice and I would make up a small cloth lined basket of homemade bread, jam, cordial, and confectionary. Thank goodness I checked with 'customs' before doing this in Iceland! A gift basket of homemade edibles would have been a gross insult to the hostess, as it implies that she cannot bake!

I don't deal well with people showing up too late to invites, and always try to be on time or no more than 15 minutes after the stated time on an invite. Crocus, I waited for the cathedral clock to strike 11:00 am and then we left the house. The cathedral is about two minutes away by car, so I was 'appropriately' late!

[Crocus]

Oh, well I suppose 5 minutes or so arn't that bad eh?;) x