Why wont parents parent? - Serious thread

[keepersdaughter]

This is something I've been mulling over for some time and follows on a thread of Sheddie's about disruptive children. I've been reading about the increase in youth violence in Britain (and all over the world for that matter) and have been wondering where it really all stems from. We all know of the problems with drugs and alcohol plaguing society. Drugs are seemingly avalable on every street corner. Where once the disruptive kids used to hang out for a fag in the school toilets or behind the bike shed, drugs now seem to have taken their place. Single parent households are not only on the rise, they are commonplace. There is so much media influence and information out there about what we should and shouldn't do, I think parents are not really sure what to do any more. When I was growing up things seemed a lot more clearcut. Parents, teachers and authority figures ruled by fear. There were consequences to bad behaviour. Are some children not taught about consequences or do they just not care? If not, why I wonder?
It seems there is a whole lot more social awareness, yet manners, respect and consideration for others seems to have flown out the window. While much of the discipline people of my generation and older grew up with would undoutedly be considered child abuse now, parents seem to have stepped back and almost absolved themselves from taking responsibility to teach and guide their children for fear they wont be liked (loved) by their children.

Parents today seem to feel pressured to please their children at all costs. that they are failing if children are not given the latest gadget, gizmo or whatever. That has always been true of parents I should think, to please their children and want to make them happy, but what about teaching them values?. I have a relative who several years ago was proud of the fact that they would only buy their daughter 'designer labels' - the child was seven or eight at the time. To my mind a child should have no idea or interest in who or what a designer outfit was. They should enjoy being a child without feeling pressured by the 'importance' of their clothing.

Children's movies nowadays are made with the parents in mind! Language (age inappropriate in many cases) and story lines are geared towards keeping the parents happy, so they wont get bored having to sit thru. 2 hrs. of children stories. Everything seems to be geared towards keeping everyone happy, yet people seem to have lost direction. I don't have any answers myself, I too have felt pressured to supply my children things they felt they needed to fit in with what everyone else had. Sometimes I have, sometimes 'No'.

It's wrong to make sweeping generalisations. Are things really as they appear, or is much of this media hype? Things often have a way of turning full circle. Do you think people are getting tired of all the ridiculous 'celeb' stuff and will start to take matters back into their own hands?

On a lighter note, maybe we should start our own school - 'The Rural Muse Academy' - sort of anti St. Trinians - we could spread good humour, manners, crafts and all manner of wordly advice. Watchya think? :)

Well, enough deep thinking for one evening. I'm off to bed. Night everyone.

[Healing Hands]

I cannot reply fully as it would take a while to write and I have a client due soon.

I do think it is down to parents these days, they do not discipline the children enough. The children seem to walk all over their parents nowadays. Children get bored because they have nowhere to go, so hanging around bus shelters is the best they can find, so why do the parents entertain their children, maybe because they are having too work. Though both my parents worked my mother was a nurse and if she was not going to be at home when I finished school I went around to an Aunts.

Children get more these days, parents give into the whims of wanting the latest desinger label.

I could go and on but will pick up the thread later in the day, but it really must come down to parenting. Just very quickly it is not always the lower income families that have probelms with drugs, smoking or drinking problems, the higher income bracket like public school children is just as bad.......

[eleanor2]

wow keepers deep and thoughtful.i think it s sad.teenagers arn't bought up to have respect for anybody or anything in a lot of cases.no-one is satisfied with what they have.the media makes matters worse on this subject.less parent teacher co-operation.i see adults doing things that you would tell a child off for doing.i think it does start from the first discipline of childhood.by 2yrs a child is learning to push the barriers.if it gets its own way it will keep pushing.on ahappy note.there are still good kids out there. the media as usual highlight the bad.i do think we are in for serious problems in some areas of Britain.family breakdown is rife.i bought my children up in a strict very loving home.you reap what you sow.i have 2 loving caring children.i do think some families need more practical help from social services in parenting and social skills.my friend works for social services.she sometimes comes home and cries at what she has seen and read about some childrens home lifes.i just feel personally to do what little i can e.g help at mums and tots.run a youth club.support n.s.p.c.c.i cry when i see thier advert.i dont know what the answer is.

[dinger]

I must admit I don't always blame the parents and think they have a very difficult job on their hands these days. They can guide their own children but if they unfortunately get mixed up with the wrong crowd peer pressure can undo all they have been taught. I have seen cases of problems between a mother and her offspring just when out shopping there is no sign of respect and I have been horrified at the language exchanged . I don't know the answers to these problems as it seems it is the same in schools teachers have no control and no punishments that make a difference. I do agree children are now taken over by what they will and will not wear and NO should be a word used more often.I am just glad I did'nt have to raise my children in todays society .Sometimes I think the world has gone completely mad.

[Crocus]

Hi, I agree with about everyting said here. One thing though which I believe in, is strict upbringing of children. There's got to some kind of discipline. Something that we also notice nowadays, is that parents send their children to school thinking that the school has to bring them up! I mean, the school is responsible for educating children. The basic discipline and upbringing is someting that parents are responsible for. What happens now is that unruly and undisciplined children end up in school. How on earth can you edcuate a bunch of unruly kids who don't have any idea what respect, manners and general behaviour is about? They don't listen, they talk in class, I can keep you busy for quite a while on this topic, let me tell you. I'm under the impression that in many cases you've got to teach the parents how to BE parents and what their responsibilities really are. Here in our country you see a lot of kids having babies, as young as 12, 13, etc. How on earth can a 12-year old have a baby!? She's still a 'baby' herself , but they want the privileges of adults - my apologies for this, but it's true. Then they can stay home, get an allowance from the government. At the moment there's a girl in our school being about 7 months pregnant. She is about 15 years old.

[sheddie]

I was speaking of children of about about 4 and 7 and their mother comes with them and doesn't even seem to notice what they do. I tried to calm things by offering stories about my old bear, colouring Christmas cards, but all they want to do is run riot.I will take so much then WATCH OUT!!

[Serenity]

Oh where to start..
As a parent of a 7 year old boy I have to say that I totally agree with all of you. It is hard to be a parent - it always has been. As a parent I believe strongly that you get out what you put in and unfortunately many parents just don't have the time or inclination to invest in thier children.
I know that I'm very fortunate in that I don't have to work and so I'm there in the morning and at tea time when school finishes. We have had to make sacrifices to enable me to do so - but not at the cost of my son. We take caravan holidays in the UK (not on long haul destinations like his friends), his clothes aren't designer (he wouldn't know the difference) and we've downshifted to a smaller house (derelict but with a huge garden for him to run wild in).
From what I see at the school gate parents nowadays seem so wrapped up in having the newest and the best that they're spending more time working and not enough time teaching about the true values in life.
Sorry to go on but this is one issue that really gets me ranting - I see it first hand everyday. x

[gothfairy]

An interesting point or three raised here, good brain food this! I think there are some parents who teach children about the consequences of bad behaviour, but children always like to push the boundaries don't they, try and get away with that extra inch? Many of them pretend not to care about consequences, simply want to look big amongst their friends, peer pressure is the root of a lot of problems with children, don't you think? But never mind it being the children who don't care about consequences... do parents? Do they all think they are invincible? Was it a good idea to punish the parents for children who persistently truant? Should resources have been used instead to ascertain why?
Parents trying to please their children.. yes, that seems to be the case, that parents will go to any lengths to pander to their children and possibly for the reason put forward, they worry their children won't love them, which shows what a materialistic society we all live in, sadly. I heard of one woman who had spent I think it was either £700 or £900 on a birthday outing for her daughter... this involved the hire of a stretch limo (and is there an uglier vehicle?), about thirteen friends all going to a fast food outlet where they lay on special parties, and the child was 9. Can you imagine what she will expect for her 18th at this rate? Will her parents have to borrow to cover the cost, as many do. I also heard yesterday that some people are still paying off the debts they incurred on store and credit cards last Christmas, whilst planning for this!
And whilst these comments are generalisations, it has to be said that not all parents are bad parents. I think there are many who can't be bothered to parent, who see it as a teachers responsibility to teach their child everything it needs to know; there are those who are incapable of parenting as they themselves have never been shown how to and it isn't something that comes naturally to all. There may also be those who don't want to, who find themselves 'lumbered with a kid' as they would say, take their benefits and their council flats and just have no interest in the child that helped them get these.
A parent can do their best for their children, bring them up in a loving home, where they are taught right from wrong, respect for elders and authority etc.,. but the child can still go off the the rails. They can fall in with a bad lot, undesirables as we might call them, attracted maybe by the shows of bravado, the glamour of being a bad boy/girl, and all you taught them flies out the window, they forget it all, or don't want to remember it in their need to fit in. My youngest son went off the rails for a while, in with a crowd I didn't like, though he had left home by then. I told him how I felt I must have failed somewhere for him to be the way he was, but he told me it had nothing to do with me, that he had made his own choices, which he soon realised were not good ones and he proceeded to sort himself out, and is now the most loving, attentive, sensitive and sensible (and I never thought I would ascribe that word to him!), caring man it has been my privilege to know.
There seems to be no discipline sometimes...and a lot of fear too. Fear seems to rule in communities where there is vandalism, gangs and so on...yet there are times when people stand up and make a difference. But how sad that they have to?

[Serenity]

Well said, I think that this leads on to the fact that the problem seems to stem from many aspects. Its no good blaming one cause, yes good parenting is one way of tackling it, giving teachers back some authority in the classroom another. Its a sad society we live in but there is little respect -for authority, the enviroment, the local community, the older generation - I could go on and we know that children follow by example.

[Healing Hands]

You seem to have the right balance Serenity, well done for you I wish there were parents like you in this world, but unfortunatly as you say you do not have to work but down loaded on many things, but there are some parents that need to work or that the mothers do not really want to give up their jobs. It is such a difficult topic this one.

My partner is a teacher in PE we often debate this subject on children and the teachers are really not to blame either because they are not allowed to discipline the child for fear of getting into trouble by the authorities and the family. "What happen to the ruler" I remember getting the ruler on the back of my hand in my primary school. goodness knows what I did wrong, proberly talking as always!

My partner feels it is an up and coming stuggle to discipline children these days, sometimes he said he can achive something with a child but at the end of the day it is down to the parents and if the parfents are not interested in the child . have no time for the child there is not a lot he can do, he says he tries the best he can.

Yes, there are good kids as well out there and we must not forget this. But what one can do to stop all of the drugs, bad behaviour, drink problems with the children of todays society I do not know.

[Oola]

I think these days a lot of parents (not all) actually expect the teachers to take on the task of passing on morals, ethics, discipline, and then blame them when their child is misbehaving, and then strangely get irate when the child is scolded or disciplined!

[dinger]

I think sometimes when a child throws all cautions to the wind it is a case of if you can't beat the rest of them join them .Thats where the trouble begins.

[eleanor2]

if you give your child a good foundation of love and discipline. the chances are after there rebellious stage.their foundations and conscience kick in.my daughter rebelled big big time at 15.she went wild.by 21 she was happily married and a wonderful wonderful loving person. sadly a lot of her friends are still into drink and drugs.even more sad a lot of her friends parents were into drink and drugs before their children were. she used to tell me some sad tales of her friends lives.

[sunflower]

I think boredom has alot to do with innappropriate behaviour and no plans for tomorrow. When our children were little we encouraged them to have a plan for today, for tomorrow, for the weekend, for next year and for their lives. Because of this, they never seemed to be bored because they always had some project on the go. This plan idea can be hard work on the parents, because we have to keep up with them! and provide the raw materials for their projects. But in our case it seemed to work. They were so busy activating their plans there was no time for trouble. OK they were definately not goodie goodies when teenagers. But even now, my youngest son, who is 18 will often come home early saying that, all his friends just want to 'sit around and do nothin' which he finds boring. He would rather be on the internet and playing his guitar. Although I'm glad we brought the children up this way.....there is a down side. They ca'nt relax for long. Always have to be up and creating something or have something new to stimulate their minds. It's certainly not easy being a parent. You remember those stickers in cars that would state 'a puppy is for life, not just for Christmas'? well there should be a sticker on every child when they are born stating 'parenting is for life, not just until I'm eighteen'!!!

[jazzactivist]

Hi all, a very interesting thread. I think that the problem is mainly with the adults in our society. Every single thing that young people are accused of you can see adults doing exactly the same in different contexts, so there aren't many good examples of behaviour around for children to copy. It seems to me that this is caused by two things: that our government and the big companies encourage us, through the media, to believe that we just need to focus on ourselves and our family unit and buy our way to a better lifestyle, or out of any difficulties that we come up against. The other is that our whole society is being increasingly infantilised, with the idea of 'youth' being extended and deified. Think about how many advertisers and TV programmes use the concepts of youth, easy money, and lack of responsibility to get us to buy their products or watch the programmes. This combination of endless youth and the expectation of easy ways to deal with life makes it the norm to expect to pass the responsibility onto others, or react in a careless or aggressive manner when challenged - which is actually the type of behaviour that you would expect from a young child, not an adult. Not all adults are like this, the same as not all young people are problematic, but it is increasingly the case that irresponsible behaviour by all age groups is being seen as normal and acceptable, and even entertaining.

In my view the solution is to limit childhood and teenage years strictly within their age boundary, and expect anyone older than 18 to behave in a responsible, considerate and adult way. This doesn't mean that no-one can have any fun, just that it should be age appropriate with, as many here have pointed out, consideration of the consequences.

[Oola]

Interesting ideas jazzactivist...Someone here sent me an article a little while back from the Telegraph as they thought I'd be interested in it(I was!). It was relating to the new social group phenomenon known as the 'New Victorians' -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/fashion/main.jhtml?xml=/fashion/2007/10/07/st_newvictorians.xml

- it was basically saying that there are a group of 20 somethings who are now turning their backs on the normal pubbing/clubbing culture that has dominated the younger generations for so long, and going back to the more inherent family values that were put aside a bit during the babyboomer generation.

From the article, I found this paragraph a take (related to this parenting topic) that I'd not considered before I read it:

"William Strauss, a generation historian who has written three books about this age group, has a theory. He blames the parents. 'These are the kids of the baby boomers, who were all about individualism. Children tend to correct the mistakes of their parents – youth culture is defined by adults in that way – and so what we are seeing now is a product of them being uncomfortable with how important self-exploration has become. There's a sense of needing to find a balance between community and the individual, the latter being too strong and the former being too weak. There's a push towards having more decorum. There's every sign that this generation has more of a civic instinct. I think they will create new mores, because they feel that their parents' obsession with individualism has vanquished them."

As some have said, I do think that some don't realise that parenthood IS a compromise, yet some want to carry on as if everything is the same as it was before, and the quality time spent instilling the basic morals, ethics and discipline ultimately suffers.

[sheddie]

I think if they are not shown respect at the young age I mentioned then the parents will have even bigger problems coming.

[jazzactivist]

That's an interesting commentary from the Telegraph, Oola. It is hard to imagine that anyone would want to be New Victorians, given some of the hidden excesses of that era, but I agree that younger people do either take their parents' ideals even further, or act to redress them. I agree with you too, Sheddie, that if people are shown respect and consideration at a young age then they will learn to respect others themselves.

[keepersdaughter]

Great posts from everyone - thanks to all for your insight. While I think there are many pressures from so many different quarters nowadays, I believe that a strong foundation of love, acceptance, respect for oneself and others, guidance and support are among some of the most important things needed to give a child a strong foundation. Not always easy nowadays with single families, both parents working and being told from every angle about all the 'things' we need to make us happy and not be left behind etc. It's easy for children to be led astray. I think (actually I know because I've been told several times), that I'm overprotective, but I've always expected to know where my children were and who they were playing with. Childrearing is the most demanding, hard, exasperating, frustrating, fulfilling, joyful, exciting, wonderful and important thing one can do with ones life. It's easy to get carried away with the excitment of expecting a child, then the full realisation hits. It's not a case of playing with a live doll as so many young girls would appear to think and when the real work of being a parent starts, you cannot just ignore it or expect someone else take responsibility for it. I hope things change for the better soon and there will, indeed, be a return to more core values.

[lily]

I think there is a whole spectrum affecting children these days. I don't think it is as simple an issue as blaming poor parenting for problem kids. My sons were all in different ways what is politely called challenging and all were drawn to more unruly elements. We set boundaries, discussed acceptable behaviour, had lots of family activities and yet we still had problems. Now they all admit they gave us a hard time and it will be interesting to see how middle son copes with fatherhood. I have wondered ,as have some of my friends, if those of us who grew up in the 60s are a bit to blame. My parents were very much of the "do as I say without question" era, whereas we 60s types thought we should involve and discuss issues with our children.

[keepersdaughter]

Lily, I agree there are so many outside influences pulling at children nowadays. It's also harder for parents to set boundaries for fear of being too strict and thereby making children rebel. Most people probably do the best they can. Everyone's circumstances are different and individual to them. I do feel still that stronger emphasize generally needs to be placed on courtesy and respect for others and that should begin in the home. I agree too that 60s onwards feel the need to explain everything, whereas my generation just got a clip a round the ear, or worse Lol.

[dinger]

A clip round the ear probably worked wonders .Just a look from my dad and that was enough he never needed to raise his hand or his voice .My mums weapon only went as far as to say I'll tell your dad to do the trick .This is when we know how dicipline has deteriorated children laugh at their elders now and when you hear really young children answer back saying things we never would have dared it shows we now live in a different world all together .Respect has gone out of the window . Luckily this does'nt apply to them all there are still nice young people out there who do respect their parents and others.

[JerseyLily]

I think a good mark of parental control is apparent when parents teach their children to respect neighbours by always referring to either as Mr & Mrs or Miss Whatever, and each adult only referring to the other on first name terms. Children brought up in this way learn to respect adults and elders at a very early age, and respect toward others, their property. Respect in general was dealt a serious blow with increased power afforded to children by the knowledge that with one phone call to social services that little/big devils could enact revenge on any one who attempted to curb bad behaviour: including accusations against their own parents. There's a huge difference between the odd slap (frowned upon) and a beating, there's a huge difference between grounding a child and locking them in their room, there's a huge difference between telling someone else's child to behave rather rush in and thump some sense into the ignorant blighter. But, in the end it all comes down to their parents and the parent's attitude to what is considered social behaviour as opposed to unsociable behaviour.

As for the other thread of children barging through the house!!! Boy oh boy would I put a stop to that by laying down ground rules to the effect of "You can come to seem me when I send you an invitation." Further to that, if explanation needed, "I live in this house you live in your house, would you please go home now as this is my house not yours and I don't have time to look after you. Thank you." <<<Shuts Door>>>

[jazzactivist]

I don't agree at all with imposed formality, encouraging fear, or with hitting children. I think that this created a different set of problems with earlier generations, like not feeling that it is right to question decisions, or speak out about domestic violence or child abuse. It should be completely possible to set boundaries for children by speaking with them openly and explaining the reasons, and encouraging them to care about others through setting the best example. Both parents and teachers should do this. In other countries where smacking children is illegal it is obvious that the children and young people are much better behaved than they often are here. Saying that every single child who came to my door for Halloween yesterday evening was friendly, polite and said thank-you for the treat / money. The adults accompanying them did not! Therefore, I still think that the problem in the UK is with adults not setting any boundaries for themselves, or setting the best examples of behaviour and social interaction in the home or when out and about.

[Oola]

I used to be friends with a load of boys that went to a well-established and quite posh public school (I was at the local state school, very good one but not at all in the same league). As they were in the rowing teams, orchestras, music groups and drama groups I used to go along to their school quite a lot to see them in various performances. I was always surprised when they called their teachers 'sir' - up until then I thought it was an address that was all but extinct, but apparently not. It was great, something that I would definitely like to be seen to be brought back into schools as it gives a definite air of respect and authority.

[Oola]

Also, on my way to Uni once I saw a very young mother with her toddler. The toddler was barely able to walk, and when crossing the road the mother proceeded to yank her toddler along with her. The toddler stumbled and fell and the mother pulled her up by the arm and smacked her. I thought it was outrageous and could only muster a very mean stare and look of distaste at her. I only wish now I'd had the courage to reprimand her behaviour and reasoning in public - although not sure it would have done anything. Just seems to me that it's result of passing on of bad parenting.