Scrapping council tax in Scotland

[ditzydaizy]

The Scottish Government has announced plans for next year, amongst which is the proposed scrapping of council tax in favour of a local tax of 3p in the pound. Do we think this is a good idea, one which should or could be adopted for the rest of us?

[jazzactivist]

Having just moved to England from Scotland, I think that it will amount to more or less the same thing. I didn't agree with the Poll Tax, and don't agree with the Council Tax. I would find it hard to agree to a 3p in the pound local tax where only tax payers are paying it! To me, the best system would be a local tax per square meter of the property/ies that you own - to be paid by all home owners - and used for local services. Plus, a shake up of the allocation of council housing, where once tenants have a reasonable income for their household they have to move out and into private rented or buy their own home so that someone more needy than them can have the tenancy. Pensioners on state pension / low pension and people living on low incomes and benefits would, obviously, stay put and not have to pay the local tax.

[Gentian]

I agree Jazz that 3p only catches the tax payers, but if you tax area of properties you only catch those with their own homes and some of those are stuck in large houses with the children gone and not able or willing to sell them. Poll tax is for everyone regardless of situation

[Oola]

Yep Rich and I are only two people, next door have pretty much identical amounts of land and property yet there's four of them. I don't see why we should have to pay the same amount as them.

[jazzactivist]

I agree with you both that no system of local taxation is going to be totally fair. My friend in Germany says that they have / had a local green tax based on this square metre per person system that worked quite well, as single people and couples without children tend to choose to live in smaller properties. Another option would be to charge per service eg weigh rubbish, pay for hospital visits etc, but then we would just end up with a completely privatised system. Another possibility could be that people could pay the local tax and choose from some options of which services they want it to pay for based on their own use.

My concern about the new Scottish proposal is that the 3p per pound will end up getting swallowed up to pay for the process of Independence, rather then for local services. Also, rural areas with less people will end up getting fewer or worse quality services than those in the cities.

[Primrose]

Would it work if it was 3p in the pound from your taxable income?

Say your Tax Code dictated the amount you paid e.g Higher Earners pay far more. Persumabaly they will also be living in property that matches their means. Would that work?

At the moment it is on the property whether owned, rented, earner or non earner, young and old. It is however as we know based on Bands but that has caused problems.

Just a thought.

[jazzactivist]

Maybe a good one, primrose. However, it still doesn't get around the problem of more people using services than pay tax.

I am discovering that as far as local taxes and services go, it is quite a bit more expensive to live in England than Scotland. We live in a two bedroomed cottage, similar to the one we lived in before, but the Council Tax band here is F, whereas in Scotland it was D, plus in Scotland all charges for water and sewerage are included in the Council Tax, whereas in England for this house it will be £500 per year in addition to the Council Tax! It seems ironic given that we have so much rain, doesn't it? I find it hard to believe that two adults living in one house would cost so much in local services.

[Primrose]

Don't you think there will always be people who do not pay tax and use the services? Even us on our State Pension - it is taxed. My mother who is 85 and has a company pension it is still taxed.

The other problem for us is that we have lived in our cottage for about 26 years and the tax keeps going up as though we are priviledged.

I have never moved from this area and because it attracts holiday homes, Green Belt, Conservation, you name it, our Council Tax is around £2,000 per year for our three bed cottage. (No ensuites, etc.)

We both live on our State Pension now (I gave up last year because of BC)and so because we have savings are not eligible for concessions.

We have no buses, post office, pub or shop - we have to travel at least 5 miles to the nearest. Thank goodness for the computer.

Having said that we love living here but it is a lot of money £38 a week out of our pension then we have water rates. Gosh I have just scared myself. But we do not want to move.

[jazzactivist]

I think that you are right, primrose. It is a shocking amount to have to pay when you wll be using a lower level of services. All people who receive any kind of state benefit, whether it is a pension or unemployment benefit, pay income tax at source. I was thinking more of families with children under tax paying age, or multiple occupany households. A family household uses more services than one containing just a couple or single person, but may pay the same or less in Council Tax and water charges as the charge is per property. There must be a better way to ensure that households pay appropriately for the level of service that we are using. Maybe there should be a sliding scale of charges based on service use per household and how many in it, calculated retrospectively? Maybe a swipe card system for all services? This might make it easier for each of us to control the amount of services that we pay for, and which ones.

[Hedgehog]

Wouldn't it make more sense to scrap Scotland

[Shelli]

Yep Rich and I are only two people, next door have pretty much identical amounts of land and property yet there's four of them. I don't see why we should have to pay the same amount as them.

Surely Oola you pay the same as them anyway - as your house is identical it will be in the same band?

Jazz's ideas about people living in council houses are a little radical - I dont think that removing peoples security of tenure by pushing them out into the private rented sector once they are "on their feet" is the way forward - you would end up with many more homeless families - the private landlord sector is a volatile area - with every interest rate fluctuation you get landlords deciding to sell their investment properties - a very small percentage of them are in it for the long haul as proper career landlords
- this is my field BTW

[ditzydaizy]

Wouldn't it make more sense to scrap Scotland

What an immature and unhelpful comment!

[jazzactivist]

I agree with ditzydaisy, hedgehog. That was a bit of a facetious comment. Scotland is a nice place to live, and it seems that the Scottish Govnt is doing more to assist society as far as Council Tax, cheaper prescriptions, free care for the elderly, and free school dinners etc is concerned.

I think that it is a radical idea to change the focus of Council tenancies from a permanent home to a temporary one, Shelli. However, Council housing is meant to be social housing for the poorest people in society. Whatever the situation locally there is never enough to go round, as people quite often seem to treat their tenancy as a lifelong right and don't consider other options when they are able to. I know from my work with vulnerable people, and the attitude of my own relatives, that quite a lot of tenants living in Council housing have lived there for years regardless of how their circumstances may have improved or changed. I am just saying that perhaps there should be an annual review of people's circumstances to see if they still qualify for a Council tenancy, or if there are poorer people on the waiting list who need that house or flat more. I don't think that there is anything wrong with moving around a bit, even within the same area, and if Council tenants expect their tenancy to be a helping hand only when they needed it then they probably wouldn't mind. People move all the time in the private rented sector or in owner occupied housing. Not all private sector landlords are horrible, and not all people living in Council tenancies can't afford to buy their own home. It is just a thought to help make sure that govnt support really is going to the poorest and most needy people.

I think that the point that Oola made about whether CT should be the same regardless of whether a household has two or four in it is a good one, as 2people do use less in the way of local services than 4.