low temperature washes

[lesleyhannah]

When my children were babies, and in the days of towelling nappies, we were told to boil all nappies, towels etc, in order to kill germs. Nowadays all the 'green' publicity seems to say 30 degrees is sufficient. I can see that a shirt, worn once and not stained, can be cleaned at that temperature, but are bugs and germs really blasted at 30 degrees? I suffer from asthma, eczema and other allergic skin complaints - and wonder if washing at low temperatures really does kill the allergens.

Googling on the Internet seems to come up with conflicting opinions. Does anyone know the answer to this?

[sandybay]

Hi Lesley Hannah,

I posted a while back as Sheddies daughter was getting recurrent styes and I told her that towels underwear etc, should be washed at a higher than 30degree temp or a disinfectant added. When I was working the doctors at the practice were concerned at the time that as 30degree washes were being recommended it would be linked to a rise in thrush and eye infections and other nasties. If conjunctivitis or eye infections were present in one member of the household they recommended boil washes for towels and pillowcases for all the family not just the affected person. I think mites than can cause allergy need a certain temperature too to be killed.

I've also had problems recently with an unpleasant smell from the washing machine for the first time since I've owned one. This coincides with switching to low temperature washes this year. Bosch, the manufacturer advised me that low temperature washes do not kill the bacteria in the machine and traces of detergent particularly liquid ones build up. They recommend a maintenance 90degree wash each month. In some cases detergent can build up around the drum corroding it badly and causing expensive repairs to be done.

I've switched back to 40 degree and higher. There are only two of us and don't use that much electricity.

[keepersdaughter]

I've always washed towels, tea towels and bed linen in hot water. Not able to control the temperature with the agitator type machines that are the norm here, just what comes from hot tap. I did a quick search too, not even Martha had a definitive temperature for towels, but I did come across a site which recommended baking soda be used in second wash to help eliminate any residual washing detergent from the fabric as this can aggravate allergies etc. Just about every site i saw recommended hot water, particularly to help eliminate dust mites, allergens, etc.

[lesleyhannah]

Very interesting responses. My own gut feeling was that 30 degrees couldn't kill germs but it seems that most people I know now wash at lower temperatures - probably because of the advertising on UK television. I wonder whether hospital infections have been affected by this trend? My uncle went into hospital for a fairly routine procedure weeks ago, and now has C Dif (is that the correct name?). We didn't used to hear of so many infections in the past - but maybe that's coincidence?

[keepersdaughter]

That's an interesting thought Lesley. I do wonder about hospital cleanliness. When my son was in hospital about 3 years ago, in the cardiac intensive care ward (in US) I was upset to be waiting to use the toilet while the female cleaner was 'cleaning' it. She was using one of those big metal buckets filled with dirty water which she kept dipping the string type floor mop in, then wiped over the toilet seat with a dirty grey cloth which she then wiped about the basin.

[franbee]

That makes me shudder, kd. We alternate our washes, so towels, underwear and bedding get a hot wash now and then. Incidently, a hot iron should kill off germs too, you need to iron your gussets if you get thrush.

[buecherwurm]

I wash towels, cotton underwear, bed linens etc. at 60 degrees. All the other things at 30 degrees. works fine

[Healing Hands]

I have been washing everything at 30 degrees and I have no problems what so ever, but then I do not have a problem with any allergies. I always add some white vinegar to my wash and also Borax or Soda crystals, which help kill any nasty's that may be lurking in the machine.

[sandybay]

Is the soda ok with coloured clothes HH ? Will get some white vinegar as it's also good fro removing lime scale isn't it.

[Healing Hands]

Yes the soda is fine on colours, I only put in a small amount. White vinegar is so good for many things and yes it does help to remove lime scale. Depending on how bad it is though I would put down neat vinegar and leave for at least an hour.

[keepersdaughter]

I've also gone over to using white vinegar for lots of cleaning chores, particularly instead of fabric softener. However, the smell of vinegar can be rather offputting so I just use a small splash of fabric softener added to white vinegar in the fabric softener slot. I also frequently use w. vinegar in the dish washer, helps as you say with limescale and does make the things sparkle. My dishwasher gets blocked fairly often, despite scraping plates etc. before loading and I've found the vinegar helps keep things chugging along.

[dragonfly]

Where do you put the vinegar in the dishwasher KD, in the slot for the powder or in the rinseaid hole.

I put a small splash of vinegar in my iron water mainly in the hope that it stops the limescale buildup and as a softener but reading above hopefully it will kill bacteria too.

[Crocus]

Hi KD, it seems quite a good tip about white vinegar in the dishwasher. I was cleaning mine this morning. The instruction book says to put dishwasher on the hottest cycle and let it run without any dishes in it. Next time I will add the white vinegar.

[jazzactivist]

This is a very interesting thread, as I have been wondering about the 30 degree cycle myself. I tend to use the 60 degree fast wash for sheets, towels and underwear, on the thought that even though it is hotter it is quicker, so should balance out on the electricity. For things that have been worn once and aren't really dirty I use the 30 degree fast wash. I never use the regular wash buttons. I use Ecover washing liquid, but will now add a splash of white vinegar following your suggestions.

We don't have any allergies, but have found that the allergy mattress tool that came with my Dyson vacuum cleaner does seem to make the mattresses and carpets somehow seem 'cleaner' than the general tools.

That is a really good point about hospital infections and low temperature washes. I wonder if there is a connection. I think that it is right for everyone to try to do the best thing for the environment in general, but exceptions should be made for high risk enviornments like hospitals.

[keepersdaughter]

I just aim the bottle at the bottom of the dishwasher and bung some in -at least a cup or two. In fact I did this over the weekend. The glasses were dull, despite always using rinseaid in the dispenser. So I loaded dishwasher, put in powder and checked the rinseaid dispenser was full, then poured some white vinegar in the bottom on the dishwasher itself. I wouldn't leave the vinegar sitting in the dishwasher as I would be concerned about the corrosive aspect of the vinegar on the elements, but just using it as an addition to the wash I have found really helps.

I just realised, I should point out that i don't use that much vinegar with every wash, I think I may have some dishwasher drainage problems despite having the repairman out twice. A splash should be adequate for normal run.

[Sarahc]

I can't remember where I saw it but I did see some women, am sure it was on tv, saying that although washing at 30 doesn't kill bacteria, detergents are so effective that they remove all possible food sources so the bacteria die anyway?

[lesleyhannah]

Sarahc, that is the argument my friends give for using 30 degrees washes. I feel uneasy about it, but don't have any evidence that they are wrong. At the moment my uncle is seriously ill in hospital. He went in with a pre-existing problem (he's had it for years) but contracted CDif while there. I wonder whether there is some connection with the low temp washing and the spread of this disease.

The vinegar tips seem excellent - I'm going to try them today.

[Sarahc]

I think hospital laundry is entirely different to home laundry, not sure what the answer is there. If it stops the spread of disease in hospitals then its probably worth using the extra energy. We all have sensitive skin and I'm never sure if the non-bio is quite as effective at removing dirt as bio but I do most of my home washing at a low 30 or 40 degrees anyway, although the nappies always go in at 60!

[Crocus]

I've just found this link on Google:

http://www.dishwasher-care.org.uk/best.html

[sandybay]

NHS advice is to wash clothes of anyone with C Difficile or other diseases at 60 degrees or more. The advice, [even from the some of the 'eco' brigade] is that clothing and bedding etc of any sick person should not be washed at 30 degrees. Bio powders are the most efficient at low temperature washes.
Particular care should be taken, obviously with the elderly, young or anyone whose immune systems are compromised in any way.

Washing every thing at 30 degrees would be foolish, and the energy savings would not be worthwhile on those few extra washes to counteract the risk to your family.

MRSA patients clothing needs to be washed at 60 degrees or more to kill the pathogens.
If you consider that many of the population [not hospital patients] carry the bug undetected then the question must be asked, if many of these people are using 30 dgree washes then how much may that be contributing to the spread of the disease in the out of hospital community ?

[lesleyhannah]

Well, Sandy I wish you could come and tell my friend! She won't believe that anything needs washing above 30 degrees - using the argument already stated here that modern detergents are made to kill germs at low temps. You put the argument far more clearly than I could.

I didn't know that MRSA was endemic in the general population - but it certainly adds to the argument for washing bedding, towels etc, at a higher temperature. I'm puzzled though as to why there seems to be an official silence about this. Does there need to be a health crisis, so highly-paid 'experts' can come and tell us what a lot of us suspected anyway?

Thanks for the dishwasher link, Crocus. It's taught me something - I've been buying dishwasher tablets which say they take the place of powder/salt/rinseaid. My machine has definitely been getting less efficient (in this hard water area). Now I know why - I should still be adding the salt, as it's necessary to soften the water. So this could solve another problem.

[Crocus]

I've only used the dishwasher tablets once, but I get the feeling the dishes arn't as clean. Perhaps it's my imagination, but I prefer the powder. I put salt in more or less every 4-5 weeks. xx

[Gentian]

I tried the 30 degree wash and was not satisfied with the result, so now I use 60 for bed linen and towels and 40 for the rest.
I have been disappointred with my dishwasher on the economy setting so now use the "Pots and Pans" setting which is 75 degrees and it is fine.
I wonder about infection and low temps. I use Finish Classic then L can control the rinse and salt.

[sandybay]

INFORMATION FROM PROCTOR AND GAMBLE - DETERGENT MANUFACTURER.

I have email confirmation from Procotor and Gamble

"As for normal retail product, there are no major brands of detergent on the market that deliver disinfectant performance at 30 or 40C. What we would suggest is using a high temperature wash , 70C, for at least 15 minutes. Drying also kills bacteria especially in a tumble drier."

People obviously confuse the publicity that modern detergents give good stain removal at low temperatures with the concept of bacteria killing.

[Sarahc]

I suppose another side to this question is whether we actually need to live in completely sterile environment. I was under the impression that our immune system thrives on being challenged by the odd bacteria. Obviously the high risk stuff, teatowels nappies hospital linen etc needs cleaning more thoroughly but does all our domestic washing really need disinfecting? I for one am not about to get paranoid because my washing is not suitable for the operating theatre, aside from that I'm not sure many fabrics in the house would survive a 70c wash. I also don't own a tumble drier and am more concerned about the impending climate crisis than Proctor and Gambles opinion on how to sterilise my life. Should I also be autoclaving my cooking utensils?

[franbee]

Well I'm going to continue with my low temp washes, using my ecoball for some washes, washing towels at 60c now and then, and bedding at 50c. If I get thrush I'll iron my gussets to kill the spores.

[sandybay]

No one's suggesting washing everything at high temperature Sarah.
Outer clothing etc does not need to be. Underwear and.towels are the risk items. Also Franbee, by the time you've expended the electricity on ironing gussets etc, a higher degree wash may be a better option as irons use a lot of wattage.

And useful 'challenges' which stimulate the immune sytem when it is confronted by 'everyday' bacteria' are not the same as infections that are carried by pathogens by bugs similar to c difficile. These are present in the population and a consequence of getting them may be to become seriously ill. If younger, less experienced consumers are being told to wash every thing at 30 dgrees as an across the board, unthought out measure, then they are not being given the full information. I've heard people say they wash everthing of similar colours together, one bright spark said she washed table napkins, underwear of four different people and tea towels togther at 30 dgrees because 'that's what we're told to do to save the planet'. !!!

While it may easy to see Procotor and Gamble as an agent of world wide capitalism, they do have scientists working on the development of detergents and they responded to my email asking whether modern deteregents kill harmful bacteria at 30 degrees.

.

[Crocus]

Hi Sandy, I can't believe that this "bright spark" said that she washed underwear, teatowels and table napkins together. Goodness.

[franbee]

Errm, I seldom iron anything, sandyB, it was just a hypothetical situation!

[sandybay]

What was it Shirley Conran said ...life's too short to stuff a mushroom...guess gusset ironing is the same Franbee !

It's true Crocus, she really did tell me that she did that because she thought modern washing powders killed any bugs.

Seriously though, the problem is if we catch a bug that could have been zapped by hotter wash then have to be treated with antibiotics more and more pathogens may mutate and become antibiotic resistant. Treating cause rather than effect is a better option. In my house, with just two of us, washing towels and undies on a hotter wash only amounts to one wash using an extra 20 degrees for one wash a week.

The reason I take this view is that one of the doctors I used to work with attended a seminar on infection control and the Consultant microbiologist speaking told the delegates that he insisted his wife used higher temperatures for underwear, towels and kitchen clothes and tea towels.

[Crocus]

Underwear and towels could be washed at a higher temp. As for the rest, I would say use the recommended temperatures.

Ironing I think depends on everyone's own circumstances.

I don't like to wash teatowels and kitchen cloths in the washing machine. I prefer to wash it by hand. xx

[lesleyhannah]

There was a debate on the radio recently, which I was only half-listening to, about the benefits of disposable versus washable nappies. An environmentalist - supporting the washable types for obvious reasons - recommended washing the dirty nappies at low temperature in order to save the planet. Then I think I heard her say put them in with the rest of your wash if you don't have a full load! Presumably dirty nappies, teatowels and knickers altogether in the one machine, sharing all their bacteria and bugs. I still can't believe I heard this, but can't remember which programme it was to check it.

[franbee]

I seem to remember the Dark Ages when my children were babies, the disposible nappies were those ones you fitted into plastic pants, and mostly leaked. The current style of complete nappies were new when I had my second child in 1980. I used them on holiday sometimes. The terry squares we used were soaked overnight in a solution of Napisan (a bleach powder), and the instructions said you just had to rinse and dry them. I used to drain them, then rinse them off in my twin tub, then put them through a hottish wash with the rest of the white cottons. now and again I would boil that load.