Abortion

[jazzactivist]

Did anyone else watch the documentary on BBC2 yesterday evening on abortion? 5 different women talked quite openly about why they had chosen to have abortions over the last 10 years and the effect on their private thoughts. I thought that it was very sensitively handled, and they are brave women for speaking about it so candidly, with one woman even allowing the camera to follow her going to have an abortion. The thing that struck me the most was the high level of lonliness the women were feeling at the time of their decision - even the ones with a partner and close family and friends still seemed to be totally on their own emotionally when deciding and going through with it. I am not against abortion and support women's right to choose, but this documentary made me think about whether the real deciding factor is more about this feeling of being totally alone in the situation rather than circumstances not being right etc. What do you think?

[Pippa]

Being a coward I deliberately did not watch this programme. I think every women should have the right to choose but I think no matter how well meaning family and friends are, there is always some pressure on the woman to terminate. It is such a difficult subject, a really individual choice. What sort of counselling where the women offered after, that must be important?

[jazzactivist]

Hi Pippa, the documentary showed Marie Stopes clinic offering very good counselling both over the phone and on a direct basis. However, even though one or two of the women sought counselling, their loneliness still came through. All had different reasons for teminating, and some of the women were very young and others weren't. It certainly struck me how secret this decision still is even after decades of legal abortion.

[Crocus]

Perhaps the reason for the secrecy of this decision is because there's a life involved which didn't ask to be there? I don't think it's an easily made decision. I don't know what goes on in the mind of someone who decides to terminate, especially when it's young girls who wanted to play adult, but if there's any serious feelings involved, it can't be easy. A friend I had up in Johannesburg before we moved down here, had to have her pregnancy terminated at quite a late stage. She lost a baby who had spina bifida, then had another son who went to school with Jaco, and then this 3rd pregnance was a spina bifida baby as well. So she had to go through the normal birth process by induction because the baby had already died in her womb. Her gynae said it was better to do it that way than by c-section to help her cope with the whole situation. It was a devastating experience for her and to me it was quite bad as well.

[fife]

I am not pro abortion neither against i agree that it is a womans right to choose, although what i do not agree with are woman who have more than one abortion, to make the mistake once should be a lesson learned but to make the same mistake twice to me is unforgivable. I am just talking unwanted pregnancy and not about deciding medical factors.

[SummerSkye]

Hi Jazz, naturally I can't have watched your documentary but we have had similar programmes aired here; I really feel for these women, I would personally hate to have to make that choice and I think that is why they come across as being so totally alone. It is a decision ultimately that they alone have to make and live with; some never are able to find inner peace after having an abortion even though intellectually they know it was the right decision for them at the time. I think abortion is something that would be hard to come to terms with; I have read where women are still plagued by guilt even when the abortion is a medical necessity or the result of a rape/incest situation.

[ditzydaizy]

I think what goes through the minds of young girls who decide to abort is fear ... of what their parents will say, the boyfriend, family and friends. Fear of how they will cope too. Fear of losing their own childhood to look after this new life. So many things, and of course as well as fear is the simple fact that they didn't plan it, don't want this baby messing up their lives. In which case, they should have taken precautions of course, but always easy to get on one's soap box from the benefit of age and hindsight. I am against abortion unless for medical reasons, but would never force my views on anyone, would always say, like so many have, that it has to be the individual woman's choice. I suspect the loneliness may have masked feelings of a different sort as well... guilt at destroying a life, sorrow too.. but in the end, although you can get advice from people, talk it through with professionally trained counsellors, it IS a lonely decision that the woman has to make for herself, and by herself often. Her body after all.

[Crocus]

Hi, I'm sure they didn't plan it, but surely they knew the chance is very good for them to fall pregnant when having unprotective sex? ...but as you say it's their bodies, and a decision only they can make, however a very lonely decision. It's just such a pity that an unborn child who didn't ask to be conceived must pay the price, a very painfull price. Eventually I think the girl/woman also pays a price which perhaps was not envisaged. xx

[dinger]

Do you agree with the new abortion and stem cell issues . I do believe science has to take place to futher aiding illnesses .What are your views

[Ivy]

I became pregnant despite the fact I was taking the pill. And no I didn't have an upset tummy , not I wasn't taking any other medication , and no I didn't forget to take it. There is a chance of 0,01% to become pregnant when you are on the pill so it's not always carelessness sometimes it's just (bad) luck. My son is now 17 and I am glad I have him but I am also glad to have been in the position to keep him.

[jazzactivist]

I agree with you, Ivy, there is no such thing as 100% effective contraception - even sterilisation doesn't always completely prevent pregnancy. You are really lucky that you were in a position to keep your son, but for lots of women it is just the wrong time and/or circumstances, and for these women there needs to be a safe and legal way of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy.

I have been interested in the political debate in England on stem cell research and time limits for abortion. Although I support a woman's right to choose, I think that now with more advanced technology that it might be time to reduce the time limit, as it is 24 weeks mainly because of the length of time the process takes from the woman discovering that she is pregnant then having to get 2 doctors to agree that she would be unable to keep a baby at that stage in her life, and then getting the date for the termination. The earlier it is the easier it is for all concerned.

I don't agree at all with using hybrid animal/human cells for research. I think that there is too much potential for scientific curiosity and unscrupulous pharmaceutical companies to take things further to make a profit or see what's possible eg organ harvesting. There has to be some protection and rights for this type of generated life form to prevent exploitation, even if it is just a few cells.

[Oola]

It's interesting what you say Jazz - I'm undecided on this whole animal/human stem cell research, purely because I don't feel I know enough about it to form an opinion.

Just to play devil's advocate for a while here - you say that there should be rights for this type of generated life form, even if it is just a few cells. Do you mean the potential to develop it, or the life form has rights to protection, despite it's status as just a few cells? In this case, would that not also apply to an unwanted pregnancy?

I'm really really not sure about where I stand on abortion. I think in some very limited, very sad cases it might be an option, but generally I am against it. The only effective contraception is to not have sex at all - if you have sex, you run the risk of getting pregnant. I completley accept that in some cases, such as rape, there might be cause for a woman to feel that she has no option but to abort. I remember reading about a child in a Roman Catholic family that was made to have her father's baby, because he had raped her and abortion was illegal. In my mind, how can that make for a happy, balanced and fulfilled child? But then again, who am I to presume that a child can't overcome how they came into the world?

It's a really really difficult one, and I think something that can only be looked at on a case-by-case basis.

As for stem cell research, as I said, I don't know enough to form an opinion. But like jazzactivist, I'm really worried about what can be done behind closed doors in the name of 'research'.

[jazzactivist]

I see what you mean, Oola. However, I think that deliberately generating a 'life' for the specific intention of research puts that life in a very vulnerable position, whereas an unwanted pregnancy is the unintentional generation of 'life' in a much more secure physical environment (womb) - although both are just groups of cells until they have developed further. Therefore, I think that there should be ethical rights for embryos generated for research, and the ones that form unwanted pregnancies already have quite a lot of care and rights ie two doctors have to declare the mother unfit to bear and look after a child, if they aren't convinced then she hs to go ahead with the pregnancy.

I feel very uncomfortable about hybrids, or even human cells, generated for research as I hink that it will be viewed as somehow less human, and therefore automatically have less rights and can be subjected to any type of treatment. Look at the way that we allow intensively reared farm animals and lab animals to be treated. There is also a long European cultural history for treating certain sections of society without care because they were considered to be 'not quite human' according to the norm eg people with disabilities, leaning disabilities, mental health difficulties etc, not to mention slaves. I am not sure if our society has moved on suffciently far from this approach yet to be able to handle the ethics involved in the creation of life for research purposes. I am also a bit horrified about siblings that are deliberately created to provide a 'cure' for another child. To me this type of medical intervention that a young child can't be aware enough to agree to transgresses their human rights, but what do other's think?

[Oola]

Ah I see what you mean :) I wasn't being deliberately argumentative, I just wondered what your thoughts on the two different things were. I completely agree re: creating life for the specific means of research. It's kind of how I feel about the meat industry and I guess why I'm veggie - I struggle with the concept that something is brought into this world specifically to be 'exploited' (however 'humanely') and killed...but that's another debate entirely.

I'm not sure either about one child being born to help give life to it's sibling. I think really there's a lot of different factors that you have to take into account. For instnace, if you were planning on expanding your family further, then you'd be having that child anyway. I'm not sure if these children are fiddled about with or selected so that they have the right genetic makeup to save their sibling. If that were the case, then I'd start to have real issues with it.

I wouldn't automatically assume that a child born to it's parents would be loved less than the child that needs the treatment. I mean, to an extent, siblings are created for a purpose, unless they're a happy accident - whether it be because the parents simply want more children, want their child to have a sibling to play and grow up with, or because they're wanting a boy or girl. I'm not necessarily agreeing with these motives at all.

Looking at it from a positive angle, a child that can help to save it's sibling would perhaps bring a special bond between the children, rather than feelings of resentment?

[emjay53]

For myself, I know that abortion would never have been a solution, but I recognise that for others it may be, so therefore I am not against it if it is the solution that is best. I do, however, feel that the time limit needs to be dropped right down now, to pssibly 18 weeks, but I see that no major political party now wants to make that an issue in any future manifesto. What upsets me is that 24 weeks foetuses can survive outside the womb, but an abortion can be carried out right up to that date. I understand that a late abortion involves the baby being injected with a lethal injection whilst in the womb in order to kill it before it is born so that there is not an issue of attempting to revive the child once born. This sounds so absolutely awful, and I find it desperately upsetting to contemplate. HOwever, having read many accounts of the bad old days when abortion was illegal, I would never want that to happen in this country again. There are many, many reasons why a woman cannot go thru with a pregnancy and she should be the person to make that decision. There again, I have known of young girls having four or five abortions before they are 20, clearly being irresponsible with their contraception and regarding abortion as another type of contraception.

A close relative was told her baby was so deformed and handicapped that if it did go to full tern, this child would not live more than a few hours. She had the abortion offered, and 20 years on is still grieving for tht child, but thank goodness her options were not hampered by abortion being illegal.

[dinger]

I only agree with abortion if a rape has taken place or the womans life is in danger also if it is found a baby is so badly damaged it would'nt be able to live after birth .I daresay there are a few other reasons it should be permitted but I do think if people were more responsible using contraseptives there would be no need for so many abortions. I also think the time limit should be lowered .

[littlemiss]

this is a very complicated subject and there is no black and white, just many many shades of grey and each person and circumstance is different. this is a subject that for me touches very close to home and to a nerve! i have never met my real father, he was my mothers legal guardian and i dont wanto go into too much detail but as you can imagine, the pregnancy was unwanted, she made the tough decision at a very young age to keep me despite young single mothers being frowned upon by society at that time, social services were very intent on 'removing me' when i was not even 24 hours old, which inevitably would have meant putting me up for adoption, my mother fought to keep me, something that i have been so very grateful for over the years, as i have had a wonderful childhood and have never wanted for anything. looking at it objectively, obviously if my mother had decided to terminate the pregnancy i would not exist and therefore would have no feelings on the matter, however, knowing what i do, i believe that everyone has the right to choose, after all, they are the ones that live with the decision whatever they decide to do. my mother can see cetain aspects of my biological father in me and i must be a reminder to her of what she went through, this was always hard for me to come to terms with, however, i love my mum and respect her for what she has gone through, we are very close, i very rarely give my father any thought at all and am probably much better off without him in my life, and if i fell pregnant, however it happened, through abuse/rape, drunken foolishness, sober foolishness or accidental contraceptive faliure, i personally would like the choice to decide my future.

[emjay53]

Well said Littlemiss, I think you have put the whole issue into a very clear perspective re abortion as a whole. However, how do you feel about the time limit still being 24 weeks?
It is that very late time limit which upsets and worries me. If it were 18 weeks (and I feel tht today even that is very late) I would feel more comfortable. If a woman is pregnant and doesnt want to go thru with the pregnancy surely she knows that from the begining? If she does want the child, then changes her mind so late in the pregnancy, perhaps she could be counselled into continuing and giving the baby for adoption? Once a woman has felt her baby moving in her womb, how can she then decide she want to kill it? If the circumstances of the child's conception are traumatic, I still think that 18 weeks is long enough for a woman to decide if she wants to go ahead or not. 24 weeks begins to sound malicious I think.

[littlemiss]

i think that once the child ceases to become 'just a few cells' ie with limbs, responsive to certain stimuli and sucking its thumb etc then it becomes a real 'alive' human being despite being inside a womb and has exactly the same rights as a newborn baby or toddler, therefore should be protected from termination from that point onwards, if a mother for whatever reason decides to keep a baby then changes her mind, she must realise that she only has a short timespan to make this decision and that its not a matter to be dealt with lightly or flippantly, its a life no matter how small, inconvenient or accidental, we dont just sit there when our toddlers are pushing us to the limit and think, oh well i could just have him put down or give him away and then actually do it!, to kill a newborn baby is percieved by society to be one of the worst crimes someone could commit so why does it make it alright if the child is still inside the womb? if the child is unwanted then give some childless couple the most precious gift they could dream for and the child the good upbringing and loving home it deserves. despite the circumstances and the hardships she knew she would face, my mother only needed a couple of days to make her final decision to keep me, in todays society so many standards have been lowered to an all time low, some women smoke too keep down the weight of their babies during pregnancy, some continue to drink and do drugs just because they dont wanto stop having a good time despite being pregnant, young girls see ceasarians as a fashionable way to give birth, lay down, pop a few pills and have it cut and lifted out of you! abortion is too often seen as a casual remedy to unwanted pregnancies even within marriages or stable relationships, keeping a baby is sometimes seen as inconvenient and a hinderance to ones social life and career, this is where the most selfish and flippant decisions are made and i feel that these women (and the men too) should not have so many months to chop and change their minds and should grow up and deal with their 'mistake' in a responsible way and in the future be more careful. for those who have unwanted pregnancies due to some form of abuse/trauma, often a baby can be the only good thing to come out of it, after giving birth the woman can properly decide if she really can be a mother to the child and many women bond strongly to their newborn despite how it was conceived as did my mother.

[jazzactivist]

What a brave woman your mum was, littlemiss. Not many women could deal so effectively with the difficulties and stigma and, as you say, the daily reminder of an unhappy experience, but she did it for you. How great that must feel.

I agree with the comments here that given what we now know about foetal development it may well be time to lower the time lmit. However, I also think that the issue of adoption is quite complex. If the woman / girl has become pregnant through a traumatic experience of some kind, and it doesn't always have to be rape to affect someone badly, then they are often in denial of their pregnancy and try to pretend that it isn't happening, thus leaving it very late. Giving birth and then offering the child for adoption is also very traumatic for the biological mother, and it is a decision that can affect her all of her life. Just two years ago I was contacted by an elder sister whom I didn't know that I had, who my mother had given up for adoption - even though she was her second child. Although my sister had a fantastic and loving upbringing by her adoptive parents, my mother suffered from mental ill health for all the time that I knew her and had found it very hard to bond with me, her next child. By putting the pieces together my 'new' sister and I think that the trauma of pregnancy and adoption probably contributed a lot to my mother's state of mind for the rest of her life. It was an era where secret pregancies and adoptions were commonplace, and the stress of keeping quiet about it all of her life must be overwhelming at times. My new sister has two adopted children of her own and the approach is very different as she and they keep in touch with the children's birth mothers and they have always known that they were loved and lost and then adopted and loved.

[eleanor2]

i think that this issue is an whole lot bigger than that programme.it did hear on the radio that there are so many women in britain who have had as many as 10 abortions.i think there are many genuine cases and many very selfish cases too.i know a 16 year old girl who was considering an abortion even tho her partner stood by her.it wasn't untill her partners mum promised to help her all the way that she decided to keep the baby.they now have a lovely 4 year old child who they all adore.sometimes if abortions wern't so easy to get.would more people consider different options and ask for help .would more allow adoption.all these issues are very emotional.but so they should be people are deciding wether they are going to end the life of an unborn baby.

[littlemiss]

jazz i really feel for your mother, its such a traumatic thing to go through, i would like to think that in this day and age that there is more help and support for women who have had experiences like your mother and support in place so young mothers dont have to go through it alone, once over it was seen as a taboo subject, a shameful secret that wasnt ever spoken about and the damage it caused to countless women is awful. obviously your sister got something out of the whole experience as did i, and turned it around into something positive and gave two children a loving home which is such a wonderful thing to do. as for my real father, there are about sixteen of his children that we know of, and sadly theres only five of us who are in contact with each other, the eldest son is in his late forties/early fifties and the youngest child is about five now, and the awful thing is that we will probably never know who or where the rest of us are, and some of them will have alot of problems in life stemming from all this. i can just be grateful that my mother fought to keep me as i would probably have had to go through the whole process of finding out who i am and who my family is, and my mother would have suffered in silence like yours so sadly did

[lesleyhannah]

Over 40 years ago, when I was having my first baby, and abortions were illegal, I was in hospital with an early complication of the pregnancy.

A young woman was in the next bed, suffering the effects of a self-induced abortion. This woman had placed some sort of powder (I think meant for removing corns or verrucae) into her vagina in an attempt to terminate her pregnancy. I think it burnt away part of her inside. Doctors fought all night to save her, and for days afterwards nurses sat by her bed as her life hung in the balance. As she (mercifully) recovered she was visited by a stream of officials questioning her about the method she'd used and whether anyone else was involved. Certainly she was not treated with any compassion - rather like a criminal (which I suppose in those days she was).

Even when I left the hospital she was still in much pain, and very very fragile. At night her crying often kept the rest of us awake. Allegedly she lost several pints of blood and would probably suffer problems for the rest of her life. I don't know what drove this young woman to take her life in her hands. She had a husband and several toddlers, but no-one visited her while I was in the hospital.

I do know that anyone driven to such lengths must have been desperate. I have heard of many equally gruesome methods used by girls and women in those days. Thankfully I have never needed an abortion myself. Like many people on this thread I have very ambivalent feelings about the procedure, but I am very glad that young women these days will never have to suffer like those women in the 50s.

[Crocus]

The question of having an abortion or not, is a multi faceted "problem" and I don't think there's any one "correct" answer. There's a lot of different viewpoints and as so many have pointed out here, it's every woman / girls' own decision. One only hope it's a well thought decision they eventually make. Of course in the case of being raped, or the baby having some kind of severe problem or the mother's health is at high risk, it's a different matter altogether.

What I don't agree with is when abortion is used as an contraceptive method. How can one play with a life in this way? It's not only the baby's life that's gone, but it can be dangerous for the mother too. I wish young girls would take into account that sex is not something you play around with. Consequences there most probably will be. I've read so many times that by starting to have sex at a very young age, can cause cervical cancer. Then of course the concequence of falling pregnant. It might ge easy to go for a quick abortion, but won't it catch up with them in some way sometime in future? Either physically or psychologically? Abortion is so against the nature of things. That's how I feel anyway. There are so many couples who would love to have a child but can't, and are willing to adopt a baby. xx

[dinger]

I remember when I was young there was a big scandal in our area because a young girl had died having an illegal abortion . Two women were sent to prison as they had tried to do an abortion with a crochet hook and it all went wrong resulting in the loss of this girls life.

[jazzactivist]

The film Vera Drake was a very sensitive story about a real women who provided illegal abortions in the UK in the 1950s and 60s, and is well worth a viewing. When I lived in South Africa abortion was illegal and the law only changed with the new government in 1993. Contraception was also quite hard to get for unmarried young women, but possible. Needless to say, there were a whole host of home remedies and procedures doing the rounds. A few women, and some medical staff, provided illegal abortions and it was a matter of secretly passing names around. Some methods are actually very quick, safe and effective, but many are not, and it was just luck of the draw as everything had to be so secret. The abortionist and the women concerned could be jailed for a long time if discovered. I don't think that this is a healthy way to live as it discriminates against women, and causes a great deal of stress. It is much better to have an open and responsible society where people make their own decisions. Countries like the Netherlands have an open policy on abortion and women don't generally use it as contraception, but the problem with the UK seems to be that anything to do with sexuality seems quite repressed, so people tend to overdo whatever they get the opportunity to do.

[emjay53]

I have just read a novel, which although a work of fiction, truly reflected the attitudes of the 1940's which is the decade the novel was based on.

A young woman got pregnant by her fiancee the night before he went away to sea to fight for his country. The ship went down with all hands lost. The girl found out she was pregnant.

Now if this was now, the girl would have had family and friends rallying around, helping her, supporting her thru her grief, looking after her and cherishing the baby. Not so in the 40's. The girl's own mother refused to speak to her or help her and threw her out, knowing she had no money and nowhere to go. The family of her dead fiancee were intially of the same frame of mind, referring to the baby as ''it'',and saying she would have to have ''it'' adopted. They all blamed her, ''she was no better than she should be'' etc etc, no one considered it takes two to tango.

Fortunately there was a happy ending for her (well this is a novel after all). Having been brought up in a much more liberal and tolerant society it beggars belief that women could be treated in this way, and often more harshly by their own sex than by men. In real life, this scenario must have been played out so many, many times in those byegone days, and I wonder how often a desperate young girl found herself treading the sordid path to a backstreet abortionist rather than endure the shame attached to having an illegitimate child. Thank goodness those awful days are now far behind us. Thank goodness ppl are less narrow minded, and thank goodness we are more accepting of humans being humans.

And I still maintain the abortion limit should be lowered. Yes to Abortion, No to the present time limit.

[Ivy]

We have a 12 weeks abortion limit to " normal" abortions but there are later ones if they are medically necessary. In the 70's and 80's going for a short trip to Holland meant you'd either bought dope or have an abortion if you were female. I bet the number of abortions in Holland have gone down considerably after abortions were legalized in Germany.

[emjay53]

Ivy, I think your country have got it right, at least there is room for manouvre for medical reasons. That is what we should have in the UK too I think.

I would hate to see us returning to the bad old days of women being driven to desperation and seeking illegal abortions, yet I also hate to think of the way some women see abortion as just another method of contraception. So if it were impressed on all women tht they must be responsible for themselves, perhaps some would not leave it later than 12 weeks.