Tibet and the Olympic Torch

[Oola]

I watched the news this morning and saw all the shenanigans caused by the protesters against China's alleged human rights abuses.

I'm in two minds as to whether it's appropriate - in one case I think good on the protesters, China should be shown that people around the world are against their actions in Tibet. But part of me thinks that sport should be kept separate from politics.

What do you think?

[Crocus]

Hi Oola, we're also watching this on Sky News actually for most of the day now. One does feel in two minds over this, but we do feel that sport and politics should be kept completely separate. It seems though, in general, as if the one uses the other to make a statement.

[Ivy]

China is in our focus due to the Olympic games this year.China is trying to present itself in the most positive way. China was allowed to be host of the games if it changed it's human rights policy. All China has done so far is put up prestigous buildings and uprooting and deporting people who may not fit the picture they want us to have of 21st century China. Europe must show China that we are watching what is going on behind the Chinese wall and it has never been easier than this year because now China cares for what we think about them. Under normal circumstances they don't have to.

[Crocus]

I think you are quite right Ivy.

[jazzactivist]

I agree with you Ivy, now is the best chance to try to chance China's policies on human rights. I don't think that sport can be kept apart from polictics, as everything that we decide and do and say has a political connection. And the decision to hold a high profile sports event in a particular country and have athletes representing their countries, and supporters cheering them, on is all linked to what is happening in each of those countries. Sometimes athletes use this event to make a statement either for or against a particular policy, and I think that is good as everyone gets to hear it. I am glad that protesters managed to get close enough to almost take the torch, as that is highly symbolic. There is no such thing as neutral. As Stokely Carmichael said, and has been misquoted ever since, "You are either part of the solution or part of the problem". By doing nothing people actually provide an opening for unpleasant policies, attitudes and behaviours to continue.

[Oola]

Yeah I guess you're right...I remember in the days after Iraq was 'liberated' from Saddam Hussein, one of the first Iraqi athletes competed in a worldwide event and got a standing ovation. I think that was great, since from many accounts Iraqi athletes had such a tough time.

Similarly, an Iranian boxer refused to fight an Israeli boxer, saying that he did not recognise the country of Israel. Of course, he was entitled to his views, even though I don't wholeheartedly agree with them. At least that protest didn't involve maiming and murdering.

The same with Jesse Owens at the 1936 Olympics - one in the eye for Hitler. However the USA and other western countries refused to boycott the Olympics, and I think with hindsight and learning from history, perhaps this time the world has a stage on which it can clearly demonstrate to China that it will not tolerate human rights abuses. I said in another thread that a very powerful image would be if athletes lined up for a sprint, the start gun went and they just stood up and refused to race.

[Ivy]

Oola I do agree with you on the point that it was a mistake not to boycot the 1936 games in Berlin. Hitler liberated the laws so everything looked civilized and after the games were over the situation got unbearable because the world had been here to see what a friendly regime we had nobody would believe what went on soon after they all had left.. I fear the same could be happening in China.

[Crocus]

One could perhaps remember that there's athletes who worked very hard to reach to the Olympics, where merits are far more important than politics. I cannot see how athletes must suffer because of a particular political viewpoint. Many times the athletes didn't vote for their country's government and their political viewpoint, but they have to bear the grudge, which I think is a bit unfair towards those athletes.

[Ivy]

Yes I know Crocus and this is why I am not voting for a complete boycott If I had a word in it China would never have got the games in the first place and now they have it we must make it a platform with many symbolic actions like what happened in Paris and London when the torch was carried through the cities.

[Oola]

I used to be a County athlete, believe it or not. I don't think it's necessarily a Country by Country basis, I think it would be at the disgression of the athlete.

Interesting to see that the torch was distinguished in Paris yesterday - I wonder what the Chinese govt. are making of it and whether they've produced any propaganda to rebuff the coverage?

[jazzactivist]

I don't agree that athletes are separate from the politics of sport. They know that if they represent their country in a sporting event then they are representing more than their own and their team's abilities, they are representing the values, policies and practices of their governent to the world and by being public about it are saying that they agree with them, unless they make a statement or action to show otherwise. If athletes don't like the connection with politics then they shouldn't compete internationally - just do their sport for its own sake.

I read in The Independent today about the origins of the Olympic torch carrying ceremony, which wasn't from ancient Greece, but invented by the Nazi's for the 1936 Olympics in Germany. They designed the torch which was initially lit by the sun reflecting on mirrors, and sanctified by a High Priestess to give it some non-specific religious credence. Then young, male athletes, who were chosen to fit the Aryan norm which the Nazis believed was also the Olympian norm, ran in relays with the torch from Mount Olympus to Berlin. The tradition has been carried on in different ways ever since.

When you know about that you can't help but see the connections between sport and politics, and it also throws a useful light onto the current human rights issue in China, and how it can't be ducked just because it is uncomfortable.

[Crocus]

The athletes can't be separate from it, because sport arn't separate from politics. Which is perhaps the problem. Does it mean then if an athlete does not agree with the country's policies, he must let go of the sport for which he/she has worked very hard to reach the top? I'm quite sure that the world over athletes don't always agree with their country's policies, but in the meantime they've got this talent and love for a particular sport, and because of politics involved, they must take the grunt.

[jazzactivist]

I do think that if an athlete doesn't agree with her/his country's policies the they shouldn't represent their country, crocus, or could make an application to compete for a different country whose policies they do agree with. This has happened quite a lot in the past for Russian and South African athletes. These things are important, and I think that quite often people don't think enough about what they are actually doing when representing their country - for whatever reason. Spectators do look at the winning athletes and see a county rather than a person, and this is really played up by the Olympic approach that Russia has 5 golds, UK has 1 etc. To me, if someone is really keen on a particular sport then there are other ways to enjoy participating, such as developing local competition to a higher level or teaching others.

[Crocus]

That's why I feel that politicians should stay out of sport. To reach the top of your particular sport is partly very hard work, mostly a talent or gift you were born with. Which in itself has nothing to do with any government, any policies, any politicians or politics. Here's a good example: Quite a few top S.A. Netball players emigrated to N.Z. in order to compete in the Olympics because they were excluded in the local National Team because of race quotas. Therefore even trying to up the levels locally to a international standard is not always possible because of country laws.
Politicians and politics shouldn't have so much say over sport which eventually means athletes leaving their homeland or being prevented from participating in any sport.

[fife]

I thought it was neither the time nor the place but then at least they got the publicity that they would have wanted.

[Crocus]

I think that's what it was about Fife - to get the publicity.